The Bus Stop Farce

[Martin Weidmann]

Asking witnesses questions is considered investigating in my book. The Warren Commission requested the FBI to investigate many items that they normally wouldn’t have. And they hired independent experts to verify the FBI’s results whenever they felt the need. The WC did not have their hands tied.

Nobody said their hands were tied. All I am saying is that the FBI was already investigating the case before the WC was even formed. Hoover even issued a report of his own and wasn't happy that there would be an enquiry by a Presidential Committtee. Nevertheless, as soon as the FBI assumed the role of investigative body for the WC they were under a legal obligation to turn over all the evidence they collected. The mere fact that the WC also used other experts for certain parts of the investigation does not alter that.

We are talking about two different things. I am referring to the testimony of the experts. And their answering only the questions that are asked during that testimony. The actual written reports that are the results of the investigation should be complete. What we typically discuss here in the forum most often is what is in the testimony.

During testimony witnesses normally get asked questions to which either the prosecutor or defense already know the answer, as they generate their respective questions based on the evidence the investigators have brought them. Testimony is indeed a different setting as witnesses typically do not volunteer information and only answer the questions asked. That's the advise most lawyers give their witnesses.

However, the FBI, as a Government Agency is held to a different standard. They have to generate evidence but they do not get to decide what evidence is relevant or not. If, for instance, the FBI found evidence of Oswald's innocence and they wouldn't pass that on to the WC, that would be perversion of justice.

So, if the FBI had tested CE 151 for fiber evidence (and found a match) they would have had to inform the WC in advance of the testimony of an expert like Stombaugh. That they did not ask Stombaugh anything about a second shirt (in this case CE 151, which could have tentatively linked Oswald to the rifle on 11/22/63) is IMO a good indicator that no other shirt than CE 150 was tested for fibers.

[Charles Collins]

Nobody said their hands were tied. All I am saying is that the FBI was already investigating the case before the WC was even formed. Hoover even issued a report of his own and wasn't happy that there would be an enquiry by a Presidential Committtee. Nevertheless, as soon as the FBI assumed the role of investigative body for the WC they were under a legal obligation to turn over all the evidence they collected. The mere fact that the WC also used other experts for certain parts of the investigation does not alter that.

During testimony witnesses normally get asked questions to which either the prosecutor or defense already know the answer, as they generate their respective questions based on the evidence the investigators have brought them. Testimony is indeed a different setting as witnesses typically do not volunteer information and only answer the questions asked. That's the advise most lawyers give their witnesses.

However, the FBI, as a Government Agency is held to a different standard. They have to generate evidence but they do not get to decide what evidence is relevant or not. If, for instance, the FBI found evidence of Oswald's innocence and they wouldn't pass that on to the WC, that would be perversion of justice.

So, if the FBI had tested CE 151 for fiber evidence (and found a match) they would have had to inform the WC in advance of the testimony of an expert like Stombaugh. That they did not ask Stombaugh anything about a second shirt (in this case CE 151, which could have tentatively linked Oswald to the rifle on 11/22/63) is IMO a good indicator that no other shirt than CE 150 was tested for fibers.

  is IMO a good indicator that no other shirt than CE 150 was tested for fibers.

And some of the things that Pat Speer has on the webpage we have been discussing supports that opinion. I tend to agree.

However, this was not an adversarial court setting where say, a defense attorney would have access to the reports and would try to bring out anything that tended to muddy up the water and create doubt in the minds of the jury members. (This seems to be a big issue to most CTs, but LHO was dead. And there are no provisions for trials for the deceased.) So, the WC hearings are what they are. And if the FBI and/or WC believed that LHO was wearing CE 150 during the shooting, it would be expected that the fibers that matched CE 150 were the only ones that they (like any good prosecuting attorney) would bring out during the expert testimony. Nothing sinister, just typical procedures. In other words the expert isn’t required to start blabbing about anything that he isn’t asked during testimony to the WC. But he is required to furnish complete results in the written reports. The WC was charged with finding the facts and reporting them to the President. It was their duty to read the reports completely and ask the pertinent questions. However, their opinion of which questions are pertinent might be different than ours. But we have had 57-years of researching and second-guessing. The WC had any resource available to them. But they were pressed for time, mostly due to an upcoming election.

[Walt Cakebread]

  is IMO a good indicator that no other shirt than CE 150 was tested for fibers.

And some of the things that Pat Speer has on the webpage we have been discussing supports that opinion. I tend to agree.

However, this was not an adversarial court setting where say, a defense attorney would have access to the reports and would try to bring out anything that tended to muddy up the water and create doubt in the minds of the jury members. (This seems to be a big issue to most CTs, but LHO was dead. And there are no provisions for trials for the deceased.) So, the WC hearings are what they are. And if the FBI and/or WC believed that LHO was wearing CE 150 during the shooting, it would be expected that the fibers that matched CE 150 were the only ones that they (like any good prosecuting attorney) would bring out during the expert testimony. Nothing sinister, just typical procedures. In other words the expert isn’t required to start blabbing about anything that he isn’t asked during testimony to the WC. But he is required to furnish complete results in the written reports. The WC was charged with finding the facts and reporting them to the President. It was their duty to read the reports completely and ask the pertinent questions. However, their opinion of which questions are pertinent might be different than ours. But we have had 57-years of researching and second-guessing. The WC had any resource available to them. But they were pressed for time, mostly due to an upcoming election.

if the FBI and/or WC believed that LHO was wearing CE 150 during the shooting, it would be expected that the fibers that matched CE 150 were the only ones that they (like any good prosecuting attorney) would bring out during the expert testimony.

 Perhaps you're unaware that virtually ALL of the witnesses who saw a man behind a sixth floor window before and during the shooting reported the man was wear a LIGHT COLORED shirt, ( possible khaki) ....And Lee didn't even own any shirt matching that description.  So It doesn't make a damned bit of difference if the fibers match any shirt that Lee owned....The Man behind the window was NOT Lee Oswald.

[Charles Collins]

if the FBI and/or WC believed that LHO was wearing CE 150 during the shooting, it would be expected that the fibers that matched CE 150 were the only ones that they (like any good prosecuting attorney) would bring out during the expert testimony.

 Perhaps you're unaware that virtually ALL of the witnesses who saw a man behind a sixth floor window before and during the shooting reported the man was wear a LIGHT COLORED shirt, ( possible khaki) ....And Lee didn't even own any shirt matching that description.  So It doesn't make a damned bit of difference if the fibers match any shirt that Lee owned....The Man behind the window was NOT Lee Oswald.

I referred to Brennan’s description of the shooter and stated that I believe CE 151 might fit the Bill. It is a lighter color than CE 151. And the sun shining into that window and reflecting off of it would tend to accentuate the lighter threads within the fabric. The WC didn’t identify the correct shirt, in my opinion.

[Zeon Mason]

Oswald (or whomever was the rifle displayer at the SE window 6th floor TSBD) was not wearing some kind of mask to hide his face during the shooting?

Sticking the rifle farther out of the window than is necessary during the shooting?

Withdrawing the rifle slowly after the last shot heard by ear witnesses?

Not wearing gloves while handling and firing the rifle, thus requiring shooter  to wipe off ( and hope he wipes thoroughly enough) any prints left from his bare hands?


A few possible explanation:

1. The shooter is a low IQ , perhaps near retarded person, such as Jack Dougherty
2. The shooter somewhat  resembled Oswald in appearance, and was wearing skin tone colored rubber gloves that witnesses mistook as bare hands, while firing an MC rifle.
3. The shooter WAS wearing some kind of mask or stocking making it difficult for Amos Euins and other witness to decide what complexion the shooter was. If so, this shooter was
A. A professional shooter
B. Used a semi auto rifle with good quality scope
C. Pre planted an unfired MC rifle w/defective scope and corroded barrel before the shooting In between 2 walls of boxes(  or possibly underneath a palette of boxes as discussed in another thread) .
D. Had an escape plan  using east freight elevator, ( or via an access panel to the top of the passenger elevator shaft per Armstrong theory)
E. Stuck the rifle out the window purposely to display it to direct attention to the TSBD 6th floor SE window, and withdrew it slowly after last shot fired for same purpose

Why pre plant an MC rifle apparently unfired , with defective scope?

To Implicate Oswald (because he had become an FBI informant)  however, introducie enough doubt that could aid Oswald if arrested( in consideration of past CIA activity in which Oswald was an asset as a spy inserted via the CIA “defector” operation, in which Oswald had provided info about the USSR capability to shoot down U2 spy planes)

[Martin Weidmann]

I referred to Brennan’s description of the shooter and stated that I believe CE 151 might fit the Bill. It is a lighter color than CE 151. And the sun shining into that window and reflecting off of it would tend to accentuate the lighter threads within the fabric. The WC didn’t identify the correct shirt, in my opinion.

On this we agree. I do believe that Oswald was wearing CE 151 on Friday morning and later changed that shirt for CE 150 at the rooming house.

In addition, it is also my opinion that the FBI dropped the ball on the shirt issue, by not testing the shirt CE 150 for gunpowder residue.

[Bill Chapman]

Oswald (or whomever was the rifle displayer at the SE window 6th floor TSBD) was not wearing some kind of mask to hide his face during the shooting?

Sticking the rifle farther out of the window than is necessary during the shooting?

Withdrawing the rifle slowly after the last shot heard by ear witnesses?

Not wearing gloves while handling and firing the rifle, thus requiring shooter  to wipe off ( and hope he wipes thoroughly enough) any prints left from his bare hands?


A few possible explanation:

1. The shooter is a low IQ , perhaps near retarded person, such as Jack Dougherty
2. The shooter somewhat  resembled Oswald in appearance, and was wearing skin tone colored rubber gloves that witnesses mistook as bare hands, while firing an MC rifle.
3. The shooter WAS wearing some kind of mask or stocking making it difficult for Amos Euins and other witness to decide what complexion the shooter was. If so, this shooter was
A. A professional shooter
B. Used a semi auto rifle with good quality scope
C. Pre planted an unfired MC rifle w/defective scope and corroded barrel before the shooting In between 2 walls of boxes(  or possibly underneath a palette of boxes as discussed in another thread) .
D. Had an escape plan  using east freight elevator, ( or via an access panel to the top of the passenger elevator shaft per Armstrong theory)
E. Stuck the rifle out the window purposely to display it to direct attention to the TSBD 6th floor SE window, and withdrew it slowly after last shot fired for same purpose

Why pre plant an MC rifle apparently unfired , with defective scope?

To Implicate Oswald (because he had become an FBI informant)  however, introducie enough doubt that could aid Oswald if arrested( in consideration of past CIA activity in which Oswald was an asset as a spy inserted via the CIA “defector” operation, in which Oswald had provided info about the USSR capability to shoot down U2 spy planes)

Too many moving parts. Oswald needed no plan other than deciding to 'just do it'

So-to-speak. 

[Martin Weidmann]

Oswald (or whomever was the rifle displayer at the SE window 6th floor TSBD) was not wearing some kind of mask to hide his face during the shooting?

Sticking the rifle farther out of the window than is necessary during the shooting?

Withdrawing the rifle slowly after the last shot heard by ear witnesses?

Not wearing gloves while handling and firing the rifle, thus requiring shooter  to wipe off ( and hope he wipes thoroughly enough) any prints left from his bare hands?


A few possible explanation:

1. The shooter is a low IQ , perhaps near retarded person, such as Jack Dougherty
2. The shooter somewhat  resembled Oswald in appearance, and was wearing skin tone colored rubber gloves that witnesses mistook as bare hands, while firing an MC rifle.
3. The shooter WAS wearing some kind of mask or stocking making it difficult for Amos Euins and other witness to decide what complexion the shooter was. If so, this shooter was
A. A professional shooter
B. Used a semi auto rifle with good quality scope
C. Pre planted an unfired MC rifle w/defective scope and corroded barrel before the shooting In between 2 walls of boxes(  or possibly underneath a palette of boxes as discussed in another thread) .
D. Had an escape plan  using east freight elevator, ( or via an access panel to the top of the passenger elevator shaft per Armstrong theory)
E. Stuck the rifle out the window purposely to display it to direct attention to the TSBD 6th floor SE window, and withdrew it slowly after last shot fired for same purpose

Why pre plant an MC rifle apparently unfired , with defective scope?

To Implicate Oswald (because he had become an FBI informant)  however, introducie enough doubt that could aid Oswald if arrested( in consideration of past CIA activity in which Oswald was an asset as a spy inserted via the CIA “defector” operation, in which Oswald had provided info about the USSR capability to shoot down U2 spy planes)

Why pre plant an MC rifle apparently unfired , with defective scope?

If you assume it was a conspiracy and the people behind it controlled the investigation, planting the MC rifle there makes prefect sense, regardless of it's condition, as it traced back to Oswald.