The Bus Stop Farce

[Charles Collins]

On this we agree. I do believe that Oswald was wearing CE 151 on Friday morning and later changed that shirt for CE 150 at the rooming house.

In addition, it is also my opinion that the FBI dropped the ball on the shirt issue, by not testing the shirt CE 150 for gunpowder residue.

I know it is only conjecture, but the rather large tear in the back side left sleeve of CE 151 that can be seen in the WC photo suggests to me a couple of things.

1. Most of us would not want to wear a shirt with that size tear in it. Even if it was only to work in a warehouse. It would bother me, not only the appearance, but I would be aware of it from the feeling of a partially exposed arm, I am reasonably sure.

2. LHO told Fritz that he changed shirts when he went to the rooming house the afternoon of 11/22/63. This, to me, is evidence that the tear did bother LHO, along with it being dirty (as he told Fritz).
 
3. Due to #1 & #2 above, it seems reasonable to me that LHO most likely ripped the sleeve while wearing it on 11/22/63. Otherwise, I don’t believe that he would have donned it to wear to work knowing it had such a large tear in the sleeve.

Also, I believe that I read (probably on Pat Speers’ webpage) that someone described the pants (that they believed LHO was wearing and changed out of at the rooming house) as dirty and looking like they had been slept in. Just another reason to believe that he wore the same pants and shirt on Friday, 11/22/63, as he did the previous day, Thursday. I wonder if the evidence that belonged to LHO that was collected at the Paine’s residence included any clothes suitable for LHO to wear to work at the warehouse. If it didn’t, that would be a good reason for him to wear the same clothes both days.

[Martin Weidmann]

I know it is only conjecture, but the rather large tear in the back side left sleeve of CE 151 that can be seen in the WC photo suggests to me a couple of things.

1. Most of us would not want to wear a shirt with that size tear in it. Even if it was only to work in a warehouse. It would bother me, not only the appearance, but I would be aware of it from the feeling of a partially exposed arm, I am reasonably sure.

2. LHO told Fritz that he changed shirts when he went to the rooming house the afternoon of 11/22/63. This, to me, is evidence that the tear did bother LHO, along with it being dirty (as he told Fritz).
 
3. Due to #1 & #2 above, it seems reasonable to me that LHO most likely ripped the sleeve while wearing it on 11/22/63. Otherwise, I don’t believe that he would have donned it to wear to work knowing it had such a large tear in the sleeve.

Also, I believe that I read (probably on Pat Speers’ webpage) that someone described the pants (that they believed LHO was wearing and changed out of at the rooming house) as dirty and looking like they had been slept in. Just another reason to believe that he wore the same pants and shirt on Friday, 11/22/63, as he did the previous day, Thursday. I wonder if the evidence that belonged to LHO that was collected at the Paine’s residence included any clothes suitable for LHO to wear to work at the warehouse. If it didn’t, that would be a good reason for him to wear the same clothes both days.

I know it is only conjecture, but the rather large tear in the back side left sleeve of CE 151 that can be seen in the WC photo suggests to me a couple of things.

Perhaps I am just missing something or maybe I am just looking at the wrong WC photo, but I don't see a large tear in the sleeves.

On Pat Speers website there are color photos of both sleeves of CE 151 and no tear is visible there either.

But let's suppose your speculation is correct, where does that leave Bledsoe? Her testimony indicates that she recognized CE 150 as the shirt Oswald was wearing on the bus, when it was in fact the shirt he was arrested in. If Oswald was indeed wearing CE 151 on the bus, Bledsoe could have seen the tear (if there was one) on that shirt, but that begs the question why she indentified CE 150 as the one she had seen.

My suggestion would be that Bledsoe never saw a hole in a sleeve on the bus, and here is why;

Earlier I have already posted testimony in which Bledsoe clearly indicates that she heard Oswald’s name on the radio as well as that he was wearing a brown shirt. Obviously, she must be talking about media reports after Oswald’s arrest. She also confirms she was shown photos of Oswald at the police station when she was there for her affidavit. She also indicated that she recognized CE 150 as the shirt the officers brought to her home, prior to her testimony, for identifcation and that the shirt she saw had a hole in it. Photos of Oswald after his arrest show no hole when he was still wearing the shirt!   

But IMO the most telling part of her testimony is this;

Mr. BALL - Had you ever seen the shirt before that?
Mrs. BLEDSOE - Well---
Mr. BALL - Have you?
Mrs. BLEDSOE - No; he had it on, though.
Mr. BALL - Who had it on?
Mrs. BLEDSOE - Oswald.
Mr. BALL - Oswald had it on?
Mrs. BLEDSOE - Oswald had it on.
Mr. BALL - Now, what is there about the shirt that makes you believe that this is the shirt that Oswald had on when he was on the bus? What is there about it?
Mrs. BLEDSOE - Well, let's see the front of it. Yes see all this [indicating]? I remember that.
Mr. BALL - Tell me what you see there?
Mrs. BLEDSOE - I saw the---no; not so much that. It was done after---that is part I recognize more than anything.
Mr. BALL - You are pointing to a hole in the right elbow?
Mrs. BLEDSOE - Yes.
Mr. BALL - What about the color?
Mrs. BLEDSOE - Well, I---What do you mean?
Mr. BALL - Well----
Mrs. BLEDSOE - When he had it on?
Mr. BALL - Yes.
Mrs. BLEDSOE - Before he was shot? Yes; I remember it being brown.

Initially, Bledsoe is clearly not sure when she saw Oswald in this shirt, but she then believes seeing him in this shirt, not on the bus, but instead “before he was shot”.

IMO, it can not be ruled out that Bledsoe really had no idea what Oswald was wearing on the bus, if she actually did see him on the bus. Prior to her testimony, she had heard on the radio about a brown shirt, she had been shown a brown shirt and she may even have seen Oswald on television wearing the shirt, the day before he was shot!. She may well have fallen back on this knowledge during her testimony.

[Charles Collins]

I know it is only conjecture, but the rather large tear in the back side left sleeve of CE 151 that can be seen in the WC photo suggests to me a couple of things.

Perhaps I am just missing something or maybe I am just looking at the wrong WC photo, but I don't see a large tear in the sleeves.

On Pat Speers website there are color photos of both sleeves of CE 151 and no tear is visible there either.

But let's suppose your speculation is correct, where does that leave Bledsoe? Her testimony indicates that she recognized CE 150 as the shirt Oswald was wearing on the bus, when it was in fact the shirt he was arrested in. If Oswald was indeed wearing CE 151 on the bus, Bledsoe could have seen the tear (if there was one) on that shirt, but that begs the question why she indentified CE 150 as the one she had seen.

My suggestion would be that Bledsoe never saw a hole in a sleeve on the bus, and here is why;

Earlier I have already posted testimony in which Bledsoe clearly indicates that she heard Oswald’s name on the radio as well as that he was wearing a brown shirt. Obviously, she must be talking about media reports after Oswald’s arrest. She also confirms she was shown photos of Oswald at the police station when she was there for her affidavit. She also indicated that she recognized CE 150 as the shirt the officers brought to her home, prior to her testimony, for identifcation and that the shirt she saw had a hole in it. Photos of Oswald after his arrest show no hole when he was still wearing the shirt!   

But IMO the most telling part of her testimony is this;

Mr. BALL - Had you ever seen the shirt before that?
Mrs. BLEDSOE - Well---
Mr. BALL - Have you?
Mrs. BLEDSOE - No; he had it on, though.
Mr. BALL - Who had it on?
Mrs. BLEDSOE - Oswald.
Mr. BALL - Oswald had it on?
Mrs. BLEDSOE - Oswald had it on.
Mr. BALL - Now, what is there about the shirt that makes you believe that this is the shirt that Oswald had on when he was on the bus? What is there about it?
Mrs. BLEDSOE - Well, let's see the front of it. Yes see all this [indicating]? I remember that.
Mr. BALL - Tell me what you see there?
Mrs. BLEDSOE - I saw the---no; not so much that. It was done after---that is part I recognize more than anything.
Mr. BALL - You are pointing to a hole in the right elbow?
Mrs. BLEDSOE - Yes.
Mr. BALL - What about the color?
Mrs. BLEDSOE - Well, I---What do you mean?
Mr. BALL - Well----
Mrs. BLEDSOE - When he had it on?
Mr. BALL - Yes.
Mrs. BLEDSOE - Before he was shot? Yes; I remember it being brown.

Initially, Bledsoe is clearly not sure when she saw Oswald in this shirt, but she then believes seeing him in this shirt, not on the bus, but instead “before he was shot”.

IMO, it can not be ruled out that Bledsoe really had no idea what Oswald was wearing on the bus, if she actually did see him on the bus. Prior to her testimony, she had heard on the radio about a brown shirt, she had been shown a brown shirt and she may even have seen Oswald on television wearing the shirt, the day before he was shot!. She may well have fallen back on this knowledge during her testimony.

Bledsoe’s accounts appears to me to be some of the least reliable of what is generally accepted as unreliable witness accounts. I say that because some of her language and the situations she describes make her appear to be more than a little unstable. Therefore I wouldn’t hang my hat on anything she says without some good corroborating evidence.

The large tear in the left sleeve of CE 151 appears just above the elbow in the WC photo. It appears to me that the color photo that Pat Speer has on his webpage has that sleeve turned such that the tear is hidden underneath. I say that because the button on the left cuff is positioned differently. And that is the way it appears to me.

[Walt Cakebread]

I know it is only conjecture, but the rather large tear in the back side left sleeve of CE 151 that can be seen in the WC photo suggests to me a couple of things.

Perhaps I am just missing something or maybe I am just looking at the wrong WC photo, but I don't see a large tear in the sleeves.

On Pat Speers website there are color photos of both sleeves of CE 151 and no tear is visible there either.

But let's suppose your speculation is correct, where does that leave Bledsoe? Her testimony indicates that she recognized CE 150 as the shirt Oswald was wearing on the bus, when it was in fact the shirt he was arrested in. If Oswald was indeed wearing CE 151 on the bus, Bledsoe could have seen the tear (if there was one) on that shirt, but that begs the question why she indentified CE 150 as the one she had seen.

My suggestion would be that Bledsoe never saw a hole in a sleeve on the bus, and here is why;

Earlier I have already posted testimony in which Bledsoe clearly indicates that she heard Oswald’s name on the radio as well as that he was wearing a brown shirt. Obviously, she must be talking about media reports after Oswald’s arrest. She also confirms she was shown photos of Oswald at the police station when she was there for her affidavit. She also indicated that she recognized CE 150 as the shirt the officers brought to her home, prior to her testimony, for identifcation and that the shirt she saw had a hole in it. Photos of Oswald after his arrest show no hole when he was still wearing the shirt!   

But IMO the most telling part of her testimony is this;

Mr. BALL - Had you ever seen the shirt before that?
Mrs. BLEDSOE - Well---
Mr. BALL - Have you?
Mrs. BLEDSOE - No; he had it on, though.
Mr. BALL - Who had it on?
Mrs. BLEDSOE - Oswald.
Mr. BALL - Oswald had it on?
Mrs. BLEDSOE - Oswald had it on.
Mr. BALL - Now, what is there about the shirt that makes you believe that this is the shirt that Oswald had on when he was on the bus? What is there about it?
Mrs. BLEDSOE - Well, let's see the front of it. Yes see all this [indicating]? I remember that.
Mr. BALL - Tell me what you see there?
Mrs. BLEDSOE - I saw the---no; not so much that. It was done after---that is part I recognize more than anything.
Mr. BALL - You are pointing to a hole in the right elbow?
Mrs. BLEDSOE - Yes.
Mr. BALL - What about the color?
Mrs. BLEDSOE - Well, I---What do you mean?
Mr. BALL - Well----
Mrs. BLEDSOE - When he had it on?
Mr. BALL - Yes.
Mrs. BLEDSOE - Before he was shot? Yes; I remember it being brown.

Initially, Bledsoe is clearly not sure when she saw Oswald in this shirt, but she then believes seeing him in this shirt, not on the bus, but instead “before he was shot”.

IMO, it can not be ruled out that Bledsoe really had no idea what Oswald was wearing on the bus, if she actually did see him on the bus. Prior to her testimony, she had heard on the radio about a brown shirt, she had been shown a brown shirt and she may even have seen Oswald on television wearing the shirt, the day before he was shot!. She may well have fallen back on this knowledge during her testimony.

IMO, it can not be ruled out that Bledsoe really had no idea what Oswald was wearing on the bus, if she actually did see him on the bus. Prior to her testimony, she had heard on the radio about a brown shirt, she had been shown a brown shirt and she may even have seen Oswald on television wearing the shirt, the day before he was shot!. She may well have fallen back on this knowledge during her testimony.

The "investigators" ( conspirators)  determined Bledsoe was on Cecil Mc Watter's bus.....But Cecil Mc watter's said that he had mistaken another young man for Lee Oswald and therefore Lee may not have been on Mc Watter's bus at all.    Mary Bledsoe said that she was on a bus ( she referred to it as a "car" as in street car, as many old timers did) that passed through the intersection of Houston and Elm AFTER the yellow barricade tapes were up around the TSBD .   She said she looked up toward the window where the shooting had happened, and she saw the police taking the assassin away in handcuffs.

If she wasn't simply making up a story..... Then she was on a bus that passed through the intersection AFTER 1:00 pm and obviously she could not have seen Lee Oswald on that bus because it has been established that Lee was at his rooming house at 1:00 pm.

[Martin Weidmann]

IMO, it can not be ruled out that Bledsoe really had no idea what Oswald was wearing on the bus, if she actually did see him on the bus. Prior to her testimony, she had heard on the radio about a brown shirt, she had been shown a brown shirt and she may even have seen Oswald on television wearing the shirt, the day before he was shot!. She may well have fallen back on this knowledge during her testimony.

The "investigators" ( conspirators)  determined Bledsoe was on Cecil Mc Watter's bus.....But Cecil Mc watter's said that he had mistaken another young man for Lee Oswald and therefore Lee may not have been on Mc Watter's bus at all.    Mary Bledsoe said that she was on a bus ( she referred to it as a "car" as in street car, as many old timers did) that passed through the intersection of Houston and Elm AFTER the yellow barricade tapes were up around the TSBD .   She said she looked up toward the window where the shooting had happened, and she saw the police taking the assassin away in handcuffs.

If she wasn't simply making up a story..... Then she was on a bus that passed through the intersection AFTER 1:00 pm and obviously she could not have seen Lee Oswald on that bus because it has been established that Lee was at his rooming house at 1:00 pm.

If you take a step back and look at the overall picture you could argue that the WC, after the fact, desperately needed questionable witnesses like Brennan, Bledsoe, Roberts and Markham to make their prima facie case.

Brennan's "let me change my mind" identifaction connected Oswald, at least to some extend to the 6th floor window of the TSBD
Bledsoe's "identification" of CE 150 (the shirt he was wearing at the time of his arrest) allowed them to overlook the obvious discrepancy in the evidence re CE 151 and linked fibers found on the rifle to Oswald's shirt
Roberts' claim that she saw Oswald leave zipping up a jacket allowed them to ignore Frazier's testimony and brought into play the white jacket found at the parking lot that somehow turned grey.
And Markham's "was there a # 2" identification allowed them to argue that Oswald was the shooter in the Tippit murder, never mind the massive problems with her testimony, like seeing the killer run between some houses on 10th street instead of running down Patton and the fact that at 1.15 she could not have witnessed the killing because she would have been at the bus stop on Jefferson. Which btw is why the WC ignored completely to provide a time for the killing and danced around it instead.

It was all very convenient

[Martin Weidmann]

Bledsoe’s accounts appears to me to be some of the least reliable of what is generally accepted as unreliable witness accounts. I say that because some of her language and the situations she describes make her appear to be more than a little unstable. Therefore I wouldn’t hang my hat on anything she says without some good corroborating evidence.

The large tear in the left sleeve of CE 151 appears just above the elbow in the WC photo. It appears to me that the color photo that Pat Speer has on his webpage has that sleeve turned such that the tear is hidden underneath. I say that because the button on the left cuff is positioned differently. And that is the way it appears to me.

Sorry Charles, I overlooked your post

I will check out the photographic evidence one more time and then respond

[John Iacoletti]

That would be a short thread because nobody denies that Oswald carried a revolver when he was arrested

> Iacoletti

I'm just now seeing this, and I'll confirm it.  It is indisputable that there was no revolver in Oswald's possession when he was arrested.  He was arrested after his struggle with McDonald and after the time that Bob Carroll grabbed a gun out of somebody's (he didn't know who) hand.

[Martin Weidmann]

I'm just now seeing this, and I'll confirm it.  It is indisputable that there was no revolver in Oswald's possession when he was arrested.  He was arrested after his struggle with McDonald and after the time that Bob Carroll grabbed a gun out of somebody's (he didn't know who) hand.

That's the point I was trying to make to Richard Smith, but it went way over his head.