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Author Topic: The Bus Stop Farce  (Read 116114 times)

Offline Bill Chapman

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Re: The Bus Stop Farce
« Reply #616 on: December 18, 2020, 08:53:01 AM »
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Flat out false. When Oswald was arrested the alleged gun was allegedly in the possession of Bob Carroll.

More importantly, the alleged gun was previously in the possession of the alleged bullets until they suddenly became the possession of the ambushed poor dumb cop.

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Re: The Bus Stop Farce
« Reply #616 on: December 18, 2020, 08:53:01 AM »


Online Charles Collins

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Re: The Bus Stop Farce
« Reply #617 on: December 18, 2020, 01:27:33 PM »
Why would you just assume that the police dispatcher time check on an edited non-continuous dictabelt recording based on an uncalibrated clock, or a cab driver’s double hearsay account of what his dispatcher told his supervisor are any more accurate than Markham’s washateria clock, her usual bus schedule, Bowley’s watch, Higgins’ clock, and the clock at Methodist hospital?


Why are you assuming that the clocks in the DPD (city hall) were uncalibrated? Yes, they needed to be corrected from time to time (as most clocks did in that era). Bowles stated that they would correct them whenever they became noticeably off. And that they might possibly be off by as much as two minutes. However, there are several ways that Bowles checked the time stamps against the actual time on 11/22/63. And based on Bowles’ report and other observations, it appears that the time stamps are reasonably accurate given the variables involved. 

Other reasons that should give us greater confidence in the DPD and cab company times versus the laundromat clock and Bowley’s watch are:

It is of vital importance to the business operations of both the DPD and the cab company to keep reasonably accurate time in order for their employees and others who might be involved in their businesses to be able to synchronize in concert. Example: the presidential motorcade required coordinated police activities all along the route. They would want their clocks to be reasonably accurate in order for all participants to be able to be at their assigned places along the route on time. Therefore it would be in their best interest to check the calibration of the clocks shortly before, or on, the day of the motorcade. I don’t know that they actually did or didn’t do that, but there was a good reason to do so. Similarly, the cab company needs to coordinate their activities with each other and their customers.

So, you see, it isn’t that I am “just assuming” this. There are legitimate reasons. Do you have any legitimate reasons to believe that the clocks and watches, that you apparently have ultimate faith in, were better calibrated than the DPD’s and cab company’s?

Offline Martin Weidmann

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Re: The Bus Stop Farce
« Reply #618 on: December 18, 2020, 02:05:26 PM »

He was there just after Tippit was shot and he had finished working the radio when Callaway got there. Period.

So, what time was that?

Markham was basing her time estimate on a clock in the laundromat (which wasn’t checked for accuracy). She had varied from her usual routine and stopped in the laundromat to call her daughter. The line was busy.

It doesn’t appear that Bowley could have made that trip in the time frame outlined in your timeline. Maybe he forgot to wind his watch and it was running slow. Both the DPD and the cab company indicate the time was several minutes later than Bowley’s watch indicated. That is a pretty good indication that his watch was slow.

Oh boy....

Markham was basing her time estimate on a clock in the laundromat

Only as far as the time was concerned when she left home to get to the bus stop. That particular estimate didn't have to be 100% accurate, because the bus was scheduled to stop at Jefferson at 1.12 and 1.22 (according to the FBI) and she had only two blocks to walk to get there, which would have taken her, at best, six minutes. So, if she left home at late as 1.06, she still would have gotten to Jefferson on time to catch the 1.12 bus. The point you are missing is that Markham would have passed the corner of 10th street and Patton long before 1.14.

It doesn’t appear that Bowley could have made that trip in the time frame outlined in your timeline. Maybe he forgot to wind his watch and it was running slow.

No. It doesn't appear that at all. Even using your own estimate of 17 minutes for the trip, he still would have gotten to 10th street well before 1.14

Both the DPD and the cab company indicate the time was several minutes later than Bowley’s watch indicated. That is a pretty good indication that his watch was slow.

No. It's only a pretty good indication that you are desperately looking for a way to move the time of Tippit's murder further back without actually wanting to deal with the fact that the entire time line can't shift as far back and still be a fair representation of what all the evidence says on which it was developed.

I have already dealt with the time Scoggins gave and shown rather conclusively that there is no way it can be right. You have refused to deal with it. I have also shown that Bowles, the man in charge of the DPD Dispatchers, clearly indicates that the times on the radio transcripts not only can not be relied upon to show the actual "real" time but also that the clocks used by the dispatchers could be off by a lot more than the two minutes you say they were. You have also refused to deal with this matter honestly.

Now, why should I waste my time talking to you about any of this when you are not willing to look at the evidence honestly? I thought you said you were only interested in the truth?

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Re: The Bus Stop Farce
« Reply #618 on: December 18, 2020, 02:05:26 PM »


Online Charles Collins

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Re: The Bus Stop Farce
« Reply #619 on: December 18, 2020, 02:49:57 PM »
Oh boy....

Markham was basing her time estimate on a clock in the laundromat

Only as far as the time was concerned when she left home to get to the bus stop. That particular estimate didn't have to be 100% accurate, because the bus was scheduled to stop at Jefferson at 1.12 and 1.22 (according to the FBI) and she had only two blocks to walk to get there, which would have taken her, at best, six minutes. So, if she left home at late as 1.06, she still would have gotten to Jefferson on time to catch the 1.12 bus. The point you are missing is that Markham would have passed the corner of 10th street and Patton long before 1.14.

It doesn’t appear that Bowley could have made that trip in the time frame outlined in your timeline. Maybe he forgot to wind his watch and it was running slow.

No. It doesn't appear that at all. Even using your own estimate of 17 minutes for the trip, he still would have gotten to 10th street well before 1.14

Both the DPD and the cab company indicate the time was several minutes later than Bowley’s watch indicated. That is a pretty good indication that his watch was slow.

No. It's only a pretty good indication that you are desperately looking for a way to move the time of Tippit's murder further back without actually wanting to deal with the fact that the entire time line can't shift as far back and still be a fair representation of what all the evidence says on which it was developed.

I have already dealt with the time Scoggins gave and shown rather conclusively that there is no way it can be right. You have refused to deal with it. I have also shown that Bowles, the man in charge of the DPD Dispatchers, clearly indicates that the times on the radio transcripts not only can not be relied upon to show the actual "real" time but also that the clocks used by the dispatchers could be off by a lot more than the two minutes you say they were. You have also refused to deal with this matter honestly.

Now, why should I waste my time talking to you about any of this when you are not willing to look at the evidence honestly? I thought you said you were only interested in the truth?


The point you are missing is that Markham would have passed the corner of 10th street and Patton long before 1.14.

You are assuming the clock in the laundromat was not slow. But the evidence of the DPD radio recordings and the cab company’s dispatcher time are indicating otherwise. That is the point that you are missing.


No. It doesn't appear that at all. Even using your own estimate of 17 minutes for the trip, he still would have gotten to 10th street well before 1.14

Not if his watch was running slow. He stated that he picked up his daughter at “about 12:55.” We don’t know if this means that he arrived at the school at that time, what procedure he needed to go through to get her out of school early and how much time that involved, etc. Based on my experiences of being in school in that era, he probably had to go to the office and request to pick her up, then she would have been taken out of her classroom. This procedure would have taken a few minutes. If Bowley had specified that he was finished picking her up and was back on the road at 12:55, you might have a reasonable argument.


I have already dealt with the time Scoggins gave and shown rather conclusively that there is no way it can be right.

No one said that the time Scoggins gave was 100% accurate. Only approximate (with added time for notifying the police). The point is that it is indicative that the shooting took place later than the 1:10 time that Bowley’s infamous watch indicated and that the ambulance arrived later than the 1:15 time of the death certificate.

Offline Martin Weidmann

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Re: The Bus Stop Farce
« Reply #620 on: December 18, 2020, 03:05:19 PM »
Dale Myers started with the dispatcher timestamp at 1:19 and worked backwards from there.  This has Bowley on the police radio reporting the shooting at 1:17.

And if the starting time is wrong all other times are wrong as well. The information that J.C. Bowles, the man in charge of the DPD dispatchers, provided to the HSCA shows unequivocally that the times on the radio transcripts can not be relied upon as being the actual times.

This is pretty simple.  Bowley didn't see anything.  The killer was gone by the time he arrived.

And, we know from the police tapes that Bowley did not really arrive at 1:10 so there was no need to call him to testify about anything.  The Commission discounted Bowley's time of 1:10 because (again) the police tapes tell us that his watch was clearly wrong by about five or six minutes.

As for your constant relying on Bowles and the clocks, please explain how any of that is supposed to show that the police tapes were off by more than two minutes.

And, we know from the police tapes that Bowley did not really arrive at 1:10

We don't know any such thing. The times on the police tapes are disputed as being actual time by the man in charge of the dispatchers!

As for your constant relying on Bowles and the clocks, please explain how any of that is supposed to show that the police tapes were off by more than two minutes.

You really need to read what Bowles actually said;

"A master clock on the telephone room wall was connected to the City Hall system. This clock reported "official" time."

There is no mention of "official time" being the same as actual time!

"Within the dispatcher's office there were numerous other time giving and time recording devices, both in the telephone room and in the radio room."

None of these clocks were directly connected to the master clock. They all functioned independently of eachother

"Telephone operators and radio operators were furnished "Simplex" clocks. Because the hands often worked loose, they indicated the incorrect time."

If, as Bowles claims, the radio operators worked with clocks that indicated the incorrect time, the time calls on the DPD recordings and transcripts are also incorrect.

"However, their purpose was to stamp the time, day and date on incoming calls. While they were reliable at this, they were not synchronized as stated in the Committee report."

Clocks that are not synchronized, not linked to the master clock, and that only served to provide a time stamp using incorrect time can hardly be called reliable.

"Therefore, it was not uncommon for the time stamped on calls to be a minute to two ahead or behind the "official" time shown on the master clock."

A clock that provides a time stamp that can be off by two minutes ahead or behind the "official" times is basically off by four minutes. Add to this that Bowles does not say that the master clock shows actual time and you've got a completely unreliable system to base any conclusions on. And it gets worse;

"When clocks were as much as a minute or so out of synchronization it was normal procedure to make the needed adjustments. During busy periods this was not readily done."

The normal procedure to adjust clocks that were out of sync was not always followed during busy times. I would argue that the radio traffic after the assassination of the President was one of those busy periods!

"In addition to the times stamped on calls by telephone operators, the radio operators stamped the "time" as calls were dispatched, and the "time" that officers completed an assignment and returned to service. Radio operators were also furnished with 12-hour digital clocks to facilitate their time references when they were not using call sheets containing stamped time. These digital clocks were not synchronized with any time standard. Therefore, the time "actual" and time "broadcast" could easily be a minute or so apart."

Bowles explained it perfectly clear!

So, in short; the master clock was connected to a clock at town hall that showed "official time". It's not even sure that was the same as real time. All other clocks used by the DPD were not automatically synchronized with the master clock and required adjustments, which in busy periods did not always take place. And radio operators were also using clocks that were not synchronized with any time standard at all, which means that the times given in the broadcast could easily be off by a minute or so of the actual event.

As it was not uncommon for the time stamps, which is "broadcast" time to differ by minutes from "actual" time on a DPD dispatcher clock, which in turn could differ from the "official" time on the master clock connected to the City Hall System, which in turn could differ from "real" time, there is no way you can rely on the DPD recordings and/or transcripts to get an accurate time.

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Re: The Bus Stop Farce
« Reply #620 on: December 18, 2020, 03:05:19 PM »


Offline Martin Weidmann

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Re: The Bus Stop Farce
« Reply #621 on: December 18, 2020, 03:22:47 PM »
And here's the catch.  Oswald was positively identified as the killer or fleeing from the scene with a gun by as much as ten witnesses.  Conspiracy believers would have a point if LNers were relying on just one or two positive witness identifications.  It's another thing entirely to dismiss the positive identification by as much as ten different people.

Having been a witness of a crime myself, several years ago, I know first hand just how difficult it is to identify a person you've only seen a couple of seconds during a time of high commotion. Markham, for instance, became hysterical, started screaming and she put her hands before her eyes. Even minutes after the crime, when encountered by officer Croy she still was "pretty hysterical". The Davis sisters were both inside the house when they heard the shots. They went to the front door and saw a man "cut across the lawn". How long did that take?

Yet you argue that, where witness identifications in other cases are very often wrong, in this case ten different people got the identification perfectly correct? Really? They all must have had amazing observational skills.

Offline Martin Weidmann

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Re: The Bus Stop Farce
« Reply #622 on: December 18, 2020, 03:25:37 PM »
Wow.  You flat out made a mistake and instead of just admitting it, you come up with this tripe above.  And you have the gall to criticize others of having a problem saying they made a mistake.k

Richard Smith does not need to clarify.  He stated that Oswald had the same mix and match of shells in his possession when arrested.  That's it.  Nothing more, nothing less.  He was also 100% correct.  There were three live Winchester-Western rounds and three live Remington-Peters rounds taken from the revolver (Oswald's possession) when he (Oswald) was arrested.  You then challenged Richard by "correcting" him, informing him that Oswald had only one brand of bullets taken from his person while in custody downtown.  None of it changed what Richard Smith stated, nor did anything you said about it somehow show that Richard Smith was wrong.

I'm not trying to score points against you.  Quite honestly, I don't give a spombleprofglidnoctobuns.  I'm just correcting your mistakes.  No biggie.

You then challenged Richard by "correcting" him, informing him that Oswald had only one brand of bullets taken from his person while in custody downtown.

Where did I say that Oswald had only one brand of bullets taken from him while in custody. If I did say that somewhere I was obviously mistaken, but you are going to have to show me where I said that, because I don't think I ever did.

Offline Bill Chapman

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Re: The Bus Stop Farce
« Reply #623 on: December 18, 2020, 03:33:26 PM »
No amount of word smorgasbord-ery is going to alter the abundantly-obvious truth that Oswald killed Tippit and probably shot Kennedy.

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Re: The Bus Stop Farce
« Reply #623 on: December 18, 2020, 03:33:26 PM »