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Author Topic: The Shot That Missed  (Read 17661 times)

Offline Dan O'meara

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Re: The Shot That Missed
« Reply #56 on: January 07, 2021, 08:23:23 AM »
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Here’s a different independent take supporting an early first shot that missed. Bullet trajectory is not part of the analysis (but I would guess it disintegrated in the pavement as a near miss as there was nothing between the rifle and limo at the time).

Background:  Recently there have been two common LN estimates debated for the first shot timing (in the three shot scenario). The more recent one by Holland/DeRonja and an older one by HSCA/Posner/Bugliosi.  Both are influenced heavily on testimony and especially on Win Lawson’s testimony for Holland/DeRonja and John Connally’s testimony for HSCA/Posner/Bugliosi. In addition at times they both have been fueled by theorizing something deflected the bullet (a traffic mast or tree branches). Besides an obstruction, the choice in testimonies that have been chosen to focus on gives two clearly different answers. Is the testimony problem just too much natural variation in witness memories, or the interpretations that researchers try to assign to those memories/testimonies, or both, or some witnesses being misled or even worse lying? (I don’t believe in dishonesty and deceit though)

I wondered what the result would be if no testimony at all was used, but rather a technique using only reactions on film.
The referenced manuscript below did that, and formalizes the work done via a forensic technique based on the science of human reaction times that is applied to the evaluation of surprise gunshot sounds in silent films. It’s an analytical tool that doesn’t rely on any eyewitness testimony, and as such is a good candidate to independently estimate the JFK first shot timing on Elm Street using early reactions identified in the Zapruder film.
https://www.acsr.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/08/2020-Estimating-Occult-Timing-of-Surprise-Gunshot-Sounds-in-Silent-Film-via-Observed-Start-of-Human-Voluntary-Reactions-of-Concern-Roselle.pdf

Applied to the JFK case, the analysis technique indicated that the first shot was triggered half a second before z133. In a 3 shot scenario where shot 2 struck around z222 and shot 3 struck just before z313, this would give approximately three equally spaced shots with the duration of the three shot shooting sequence ~10.2 seconds.

How does this compare to those other two completely different based analysis?  Well, although notably different, interestingly enough it positions the first shot happening at a very specific point in time which occurred in-between the timing estimates of Holland/DeRonja and that of HSCA/Posner/Bugliosi and a point in time where the limo was at least temporarily essentially in the clear.

Hi Brian,

How do I access the Early Zapruder Film Reactions webpage? Do you have a link that will take me there?

How does your method account for the startling lack of reaction by the car full of SS agents in the follow up car?

Some points about table 2 in your paper:

How does Hickey's casual look over the side of the vehicle qualify as a startle reaction? He looks over the side, looks to the crowd then looks straight forward, apparently unperturbed. He makes no mention of this action in his statements as it is of no significance.

You say Jackie "Starts accelerated head turning left". but in the Z-film she is turned left at the very beginning, something confirmed by the Towner film.

Rosemary Willis? ( ::))
You state she "Begins a quick look away from the Presidential limo back towards the Texas School Book Depository". Really?

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Re: The Shot That Missed
« Reply #56 on: January 07, 2021, 08:23:23 AM »


Online Charles Collins

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Re: The Shot That Missed
« Reply #57 on: January 07, 2021, 12:38:37 PM »
Hi Brian,

How do I access the Early Zapruder Film Reactions webpage? Do you have a link that will take me there?

How does your method account for the startling lack of reaction by the car full of SS agents in the follow up car?

Some points about table 2 in your paper:

How does Hickey's casual look over the side of the vehicle qualify as a startle reaction? He looks over the side, looks to the crowd then looks straight forward, apparently unperturbed. He makes no mention of this action in his statements as it is of no significance.

You say Jackie "Starts accelerated head turning left". but in the Z-film she is turned left at the very beginning, something confirmed by the Towner film.

Rosemary Willis? ( ::))
You state she "Begins a quick look away from the Presidential limo back towards the Texas School Book Depository". Really?


How do I access the Early Zapruder Film Reactions webpage? Do you have a link that will take me there?

Here is a page that is on the McAdams website that I would think he is referring to. It is well written and the graphics are well done. This article was written by Kenneth Scearce, the coauthor of the article that Brian linked to in his post that you quoted.


http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/scearce.htm

Offline Jack Nessan

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Re: The Shot That Missed
« Reply #58 on: January 07, 2021, 01:56:14 PM »
Does the issue of some earwitnesses saying the first shot sounded different than the others mean anything re the angle/time?

And many of the witnesses further down, along the Grassy Knoll, said they didn't hear a first shot. Zapruder, Sitzman, Brehm, the Newmans.....all basically said they heard two shots. Mrs. Newman said there may have been a third.

I find it very odd that many of the spectators further down Elm at the time of the supposed first shot said they only heard two shots.

So as to not be seen, the rifle was most likely retracted inside the building for the first shot. A few people located inside the TSBD stated they only heard one shot. The dust on BRW hair is also an indication the muzzle blast was inside the building not with barrel sticking outside of the building. BRW is also a two shot witness as was Jarman located next to him.


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Re: The Shot That Missed
« Reply #58 on: January 07, 2021, 01:56:14 PM »


Offline Brian Roselle

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Re: The Shot That Missed
« Reply #59 on: January 07, 2021, 04:23:37 PM »
Dan, I'm going to reply to your questions all together, as I'm not familiar with breaking out quotes like everyone else can. I'll eventually figure it out.

Reactions seen early in the zapruder film
https://sites.google.com/site/earlyzapruderfilmreactions/reactions-seen-early-in-zapruder-film

Some apparent total lack of reaction in people in response to a stimulus was a phenomenon that I saw mentioned in one literature reference, but no further elaboration was made. It may be situational based, so I don’t know the exact answer. I can only speculate for this situation. For the crowds I personally believe that it may be as simple as “what grabs, and holds, your attention at that time”. The visual stimulus intensity of seeing the President and First lady right in front of them (many were trying for direct eye contact and a wave response), might well override an auditory stimulus to a firecracker in the background. Now if the auditory stimulus was perceived as a threat, or a real concern, I suspect that perception would override the visual stimulus and they would react to that by looking around. Net the President and First lady right in front of them visually “grabbed and held their attention at that time” over a perceived non-concerning auditory stimulus.  For others the first shot sound could be perceived as something that was concerning and they reacted. Again, some speculation, but I wouldn’t be surprised that for those in the Presidential limo and the trailing SS car, there was some sense of relaxation starting to set in, the motorcade was nearly complete, the crowds were much thinner, and the visual field ahead of them was less stimulating than what they had just completed. A surprise loud bang for them may have posed a real concern that grabbed their attention and started a voluntary reaction of concern.

Another point that might come into play is that the most difficult location of a sound for your ears to accurately spatially locate (sound localization) is directly behind and high overhead. I suspect that was the case for individuals in the Presidential limo and the trailing SS car. It may have been hard, based on only one, first unexpected quick sharp bang, to determining exactly what direction the sound came from. Harder to tell which way to look. I can’t say for sure but actually Jackies’ and John Connally’s sweeping head reactions first left and then back right look almost like classical sound localization motions from mammals swinging the head back and forth to locate an unknown sound stimulus.

Regarding your comments on Hickey, I think there are two points to consider. 1) This technique does not use any testimony and further obviously does not use any testimony that is not given, or even testimony that is in error or specific details that were even forgotten or assumed inconsequential within all the chaos. 2) The reactions of Hickey you mention are not startle reactions. They are voluntary reactions, and fit the description as being unusual enough to be unusual voluntary motions of concern, and occur within a timeframe other voluntary motions of concern are observed and consistent with a population perception time model.

Looking at the video in the link above, Jackie starts accelerated head turning left at ~Z143.5, before looking back right. (Similar to John Connally's L-R head motion but starts slightly earlier and ends slightly later than his).

Rosemary Willis in the lower video in the link above appeared to begin a quick look away from the Presidential Limo back towards the Texas School Book Depository at ~Z140 as it appeared to both authors independently using that video.

To note, one advantage to using an average (or median) of multiple samples, if possible, is that this can help buffer mistakes made in sampling. If there were a couple of data points that I changed my mind on to use, I could just throw them out. For example if I decided I didn’t want to use JFK and Rosemary Willis data points, I would throw them out and recalculate. If I did that for this case the predicted first shot timing would only shift about 1.5 frames. If those two points were in error, the original result would have been somewhat buffered by the rest of the data with the original result only being off by less than two frames. Yes, some judgement in context is necessary, but even though I would say those two samples may be a little less clear than the others they still were judged relevant enough to include.

Good questions, hope this helps.

Online Steve M. Galbraith

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Re: The Shot That Missed
« Reply #60 on: January 07, 2021, 07:43:51 PM »
So as to not be seen, the rifle was most likely retracted inside the building for the first shot. A few people located inside the TSBD stated they only heard one shot. The dust on BRW hair is also an indication the muzzle blast was inside the building not with barrel sticking outside of the building. BRW is also a two shot witness as was Jarman located next to him.
Did they give earlier, pre-testimony accounts on the number of shots? Because in their testimony they both said they heard three shots.

Jarman's account
Mr. JARMAN - After the motorcade turned, going west on Elm, then there was a loud shot, or backfire, as I thought it was then--I thought it was a backfire.
Mr. BALL - You thought it was what?
Mr. JARMAN - A backfire or an officer giving a salute to the President. And then at that time I didn't, you know, think too much about it. And then the second shot was fired, and that is when the people started falling on the ground and the motorcade car jumped forward, and then the third shot was fired right behind the second one.

William's account:
Mr. WILLIAMS. After the Presidents car had passed my window, the last thing I remember seeing him do was, you know--it seemed to me he had a habit of pushing his hair back. The last thing I saw him do was he pushed his hand up like this. I assumed he was brushing his hair back. And then the thing that happened then was a loud shot--first I thought they were saluting the President, somebody even maybe a motorcycle backfire. The first shot--there was two shots rather close together. The second and the third shot was closer together than the first shot and the second shot, as I remember.
Mr. BALL. Now, was your head out the window?
Mr. WILLIAMS. I could not say for sure. I do not remember.
Mr. BALL. Did you notice where did you think the shots came from?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Well, the first shot-I really did not pay any attention to it, because I did not know what was happening. The second shot, it sounded like it was right in the building, the second and third shot. And it sounded-it even shook the building, the side we were on cement fell on my head.

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Re: The Shot That Missed
« Reply #60 on: January 07, 2021, 07:43:51 PM »


Offline John Iacoletti

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Re: The Shot That Missed
« Reply #61 on: January 07, 2021, 08:10:51 PM »
"I heard two shots"


Offline Jack Nessan

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Re: The Shot That Missed
« Reply #62 on: January 08, 2021, 05:59:28 AM »
Did they give earlier, pre-testimony accounts on the number of shots? Because in their testimony they both said they heard three shots.

Jarman's account
Mr. JARMAN - After the motorcade turned, going west on Elm, then there was a loud shot, or backfire, as I thought it was then--I thought it was a backfire.
Mr. BALL - You thought it was what?
Mr. JARMAN - A backfire or an officer giving a salute to the President. And then at that time I didn't, you know, think too much about it. And then the second shot was fired, and that is when the people started falling on the ground and the motorcade car jumped forward, and then the third shot was fired right behind the second one.

William's account:
Mr. WILLIAMS. After the Presidents car had passed my window, the last thing I remember seeing him do was, you know--it seemed to me he had a habit of pushing his hair back. The last thing I saw him do was he pushed his hand up like this. I assumed he was brushing his hair back. And then the thing that happened then was a loud shot--first I thought they were saluting the President, somebody even maybe a motorcycle backfire. The first shot--there was two shots rather close together. The second and the third shot was closer together than the first shot and the second shot, as I remember.
Mr. BALL. Now, was your head out the window?
Mr. WILLIAMS. I could not say for sure. I do not remember.
Mr. BALL. Did you notice where did you think the shots came from?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Well, the first shot-I really did not pay any attention to it, because I did not know what was happening. The second shot, it sounded like it was right in the building, the second and third shot. And it sounded-it even shook the building, the side we were on cement fell on my head.
And then the second shot was fired, and that is when the people started falling on the ground and the motorcade car jumped forward, and then the third shot was fired right behind the second one.


"And then the second shot was fired, and that is when the people started falling on the ground and the motorcade car jumped forward, and then the third shot was fired right behind the second one."

The motorcade car jumped forward after the headshot. In this account it was Jarman's "second shot"

John Iacoletti posted BRW statement before he added a shot to his narrative. Many of these witnesses would later add a shot.

Online Steve M. Galbraith

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Re: The Shot That Missed
« Reply #63 on: January 08, 2021, 03:52:16 PM »
And then the second shot was fired, and that is when the people started falling on the ground and the motorcade car jumped forward, and then the third shot was fired right behind the second one.


"And then the second shot was fired, and that is when the people started falling on the ground and the motorcade car jumped forward, and then the third shot was fired right behind the second one."

The motorcade car jumped forward after the headshot. In this account it was Jarman's "second shot"

John Iacoletti posted BRW statement before he added a shot to his narrative. Many of these witnesses would later add a shot.
Thanks. Yes, I recall seeing that Williams' affidavit before but I forgot all about it.

Jarman's account is hard to muddle through. But he said he heard three shots. A third shot AFTER the head shot? And we have Harold Norman, standing right below the window, saying in a 12/4/63 deposition and in his testimony he heard three.

It's maddening to realize these men were standing/squatting right below the window and one heard two shots and another three.


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Re: The Shot That Missed
« Reply #63 on: January 08, 2021, 03:52:16 PM »