Then went inside with the curtain rods

[John Iacoletti]

The assumption I'm making - that BWF downplayed the size of the bag Oswald brought to work with him that morning is based on the following evidence:

Oswald broke his usual routine, went to the Paine house the night before the assassination to collect curtain rods - Frazier's testimony
There were two curtain rods in the Paine garage - Ruth Paine's testimony
There was a rifle in a blanket in the garage - Marina's testimony
Oswald showed up at the Randle house with a long package - BWF and LMR testimony
Oswald reminded Frazier they were curtain rods - Frazier testimony
Oswald never mentioned needing curtain rods to Ruth Paine, Marina or Earlene Roberts.
The two curtain rods were still in the garage after the assassination - Ruth Paine testimony
The rifle was missing after the assassination - various police testimonies

Things your scenario doesn't account for:

- you don't know there was a rifle in the garage on Thursday either (much less that rifle).  All you know is that 6 weeks earlier Marina peeked in the end of a rolled up and tied blanket and saw part of a wooden stock that she took to be a rifle.

- Neither Marina or Ruth saw Lee go into the garage that night or the next morning.  And he went to bed before they did.

- Neither Marina or Ruth saw Lee with a homemade paper bag or a long package.

- Marina said that Lee had a small package with his lunch when he left that morning.

Propose a better scenario and change my mind.

Here's a better scenario:  whatever was in the bag that Frazier saw, it wasn't the CE139 rifle.

[Richard Smith]

Of all the dishonest contrarian clams the one that takes the cake is the suggestion that there is any doubt about Marina seeing Oswald's rifle in the Paine's garage.  Marina responds to dozens of WC and HSCA questions relating to the "rifle."  Her answers specify that she is discussing a "rifle."  When the police come on 11.22 and ask about a rifle, Marina directs them to the blanket.  In one answer to a question relating to the "rifle," however, she describes seeing the wooden part of its stock.  Which, of course, Oswald's rifle has.  But CTers cling to this straw in desperation to suggest that she just assumed or thought that the wooden stock of a rifle was attached to a rifle!  And therefore there is somehow doubt that Oswald kept his rifle in the garage.  A completely dishonest distortion of Marina's testimony.  Never once when being asked about the "rifle" does she indicate there is any doubt that the object in the blanket is a rifle.  The questions she is asked refer to a "rifle."  But we are supposed to doubt that Marina confirmed Oswald kept a rifle in that blanket?  And Marina has never said otherwise to correct that impression in 50 plus years?  Unreal.

Mr. McDONALD - And do you recall going in that garage from time to time when you lived with the Paines?
Mrs. PORTER - Yes.
Mr. McDONALD - And do you recall seeing where his rifle was located? In other words, did you know where it was?
Mrs. PORTER - Yes, I did.
Mr. McDONALD - Where was it?
Mrs. PORTER - In the garage.

[Alan Ford]

Of all the dishonest contrarian clams the one that takes the cake is the suggestion that there is any doubt about Marina seeing Oswald's rifle in the Paine's garage.  Marina responds to dozens of WC and HSCA questions relating to the "rifle."  Her answers specify that she is discussing a "rifle."  When the police come on 11.22 and ask about a rifle, Marina directs them to the blanket.  In one answer to a question relating to the "rifle," however, she describes seeing the wooden part of its stock.  Which, of course, Oswald's rifle has.  But CTers cling to this straw in desperation to suggest that she just assumed or thought that the wooden stock of a rifle was attached to a rifle!  And therefore there is somehow doubt that Oswald kept his rifle in the garage.  A completely dishonest distortion of Marina's testimony.  Never once when being asked about the "rifle" does she indicate there is any doubt that the object in the blanket is a rifle.  The questions she is asked refer to a "rifle."  But we are supposed to doubt that Marina confirmed Oswald kept a rifle in that blanket?  And Marina has never said otherwise to correct that impression in 50 plus years?  Unreal.

Mr. McDONALD - And do you recall going in that garage from time to time when you lived with the Paines?
Mrs. PORTER - Yes.
Mr. McDONALD - And do you recall seeing where his rifle was located? In other words, did you know where it was?
Mrs. PORTER - Yes, I did.
Mr. McDONALD - Where was it?
Mrs. PORTER - In the garage.

Friends, a good rule in life is to always ask yourself: What is the LNer leaving out?

Mr. McDONALD - And do you recall going in that garage from time to time when you lived with the Paines?
Mrs. PORTER - Yes.
Mr. McDONALD - And do you recall seeing where his rifle was located? In other words, did you know where it was?
Mrs. PORTER - Yes, I did.
Mr. McDONALD - Where was it?
Mrs. PORTER - In the garage.
Mr. McDONALD - Where in the garage?
Mrs. PORTER - I think it was wrapped in a blanket.
Mr. McDONALD - And where was this blanket? In other words, was it in plain view? Was it in a corner?
Mrs. PORTER - NO, it was between boxes I think. I mean that is how I remember it now.
Mr. McDONALD - Did you ever see it unwrapped? Did you ever see the gun when you were at Ruth Paine's? Did you ever see the rifle taken outside of the blanket?
Mrs. PORTER - No.
Mr. McDONALD - Was it ever exposed?
Mrs. PORTER - No.

[Martin Weidmann]

Things your scenario doesn't account for:

- you don't know there was a rifle in the garage on Thursday either (much less that rifle).  All you know is that 6 weeks earlier Marina peeked in the end of a rolled up and tied blanket and saw part of a wooden stock that she took to be a rifle.

- Neither Marina or Ruth saw Lee go into the garage that night or the next morning.  And he went to bed before they did.

- Neither Marina or Ruth saw Lee with a homemade paper bag or a long package.

- Marina said that Lee had a small package with his lunch when he left that morning.

Here's a better scenario:  whatever was in the bag that Frazier saw, it wasn't the CE139 rifle.

The "scenario" that Dan is proposing is basically the same circumstantial scenario that the WC told us.

He can't explain the DPD identification bureau document, showing SSA Howlett presenting curtain rods for fingerprinting on 03/15/64 and collecting them on the 24th (1 day after 2 sets were recovered in Ruth Paine's garage), which clearly implies a third set, so he dismisses it as "suspicious"

He can't explain, during his polygraph, Frazier dismissing the TSBD bag as not the one he saw Oswald carry, so he simply calls the polygraph fake.

I've said it before, if you make enough assumptions and ignore/dismiss factual evidence, you will always arrive at the conclusion you want to arrive at. It's classic LN!

[Bill Chapman]

And you know this how?  Chapman Fabrications anyone?

The guy looks like a nap waiting to happen.

[Dan O'meara]

Evidence and arguments that support the proposal that Oswald did not carry curtain rods to work ( a shout -out to David Von Pein from whose site I lifted most of the following points):

1) Oswald denied carrying curtain rods to work.

Why would Oswald deny this? If he'd carried curtain rods to work that day he could've told the authorities this and told them where to find them. No curtain rods were ever found in the TSBD. Nobody in the TSBD (other than Frazier) reported seeing Oswald with a long package.

2) Why did Oswald need the curtain rods on Thursday night?

What was the urgency for curtain rods on Thursday? Why not pick them up on Friday night and bring them with him on Monday? Breaking his routine that weekend to go to Irving on the Thursday supports the view he was picking up his rifle because he would need that on Friday. It's doubtful he urgently needed curtain rods on Friday.

3) Why did Oswald leave the curtain rods at work when he left?

If Oswald is just an innocent guy in no rush to get away, why didn't he take the curtain rods with him when he left on Friday? He's made a trip especially to collect them on Thursday then simply walked off without them on Friday. This is easily explained if there were never any curtain rods in the first place.

4) Ruth Paine testifies on more than one occasion that there were just two curtain rods (which she had wrapped and placed on the shelf herself). She testified that this was the case at the WC hearings and the 1986 assassination "docu-trial":

VINCENT BUGLIOSI -- "Now you, in fact, DID have some curtain rods in
the garage, is that correct?"
MRS. PAINE -- "In the garage...yes."
MR. BUGLIOSI -- "After the assassination, they were still there."
MRS. PAINE -- "Yes, that's right."

5) On 3/23/64 Counsel Jenner and Agent Howlett visit Ruth Paine. As part of a lengthy deposition they record taking the curtain rods from the Paine garage:

Mr. JENNER - Now, Mrs. Paine, one of the things we said we might see is a package that was in your garage containing curtain rods.
Mrs. PAINE - Yes--as you recall.
Mr. JENNER - You said you would leave that package in precisely the place wherever it was last week when you were in Washington, D.C., and have you touched it since you came home?
Mrs. PAINE - I have not touched it.
Mr. JENNER - And is it now in the place it was to the best of your recollection on November 21, 1963?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes.

6) There is, of course, Marina Oswald's extensive testimony outlining Oswald's ownership and use of a rifle. Of interest is the discovery of the rifle in the Paine garage:

Mr. RANKIN. Do you know whether or not the rifle was carried in the station wagon?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, it was.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you have anything to do with loading it in there?
Mrs. OSWALD. No. Lee was loading everything on because I was pregnant at the time. But I know that Lee loaded the rifle on.
Mr. RANKIN. Was the rifle carried in some kind of a case when you went back with Mrs. Paine?
Mrs. OSWALD. After we arrived, I tried to put the bed, the child's crib together, the metallic parts, and I looked for a certain part, and I came upon something wrapped in a blanket. I thought that was part of the bed, but it turned out to be the rifle.

Marina confirms it was the same blanket discovered during the initial search of the garage on the day of the assassination:

Mr. RANKIN. When was the last time that you had noticed the rifle before that day?
Mrs. OSWALD. I said that I saw--for the first and last time I saw the rifle about a week after I had come to Mrs. Paine.
But, as I said, the rifle was wrapped in a blanket, and I was sure when the police had come that the rifle was still in the blanket, because it was all rolled together. And, therefore, when they took the blanket and the rifle was not in it, I was very much surprised.

The blanket was folded, rolled and tied with twine to form a container for the rifle. When discovered, Guy Rose stated he could still see the outline of the rifle .
So the curtain rods were still in the garage but the rifle was gone.

7) When asked why she thought Oswald showed up on the Thursday, Marina stated it was because he wanted to "make his peace" with her. As with the curtain rod excuse given to Frazier, this could have waited until Friday. Marina reveals that Oswald wanted to reunite with Marina and the children as soon as possible:

"On that day, he suggested that we rent an apartment in Dallas. He said that
he was tired of living alone and perhaps the reason for my being so angry was the fact that we were not living together. That if I want to he would rent an apartment in Dallas tomorrow--that he didn't want me to remain with Ruth any longer, but wanted me to live with him in Dallas."

He would rent a apartment "tomorrow" if she wanted it. He could hardly bring his family back to the cubby-hole he was living in and it seems he wanted to find somewhere for the family to live together "tomorrow". Hardly a man in need of sprucing up his existing room with some curtain rods.

No need for curtain rods



This picture of Oswald's room clearly shows perfectly adequate curtain rods. Not to mention the venetian blinds on the windows:



He mentioned nothing about needing them to Ruth Paine, who he supposedly just took them from, Mrs Roberts, the housekeeper where he lived or the Johnsons, the owners of the house:

Mrs. JOHNSON. Yes, sir; and it had curtains and venetian blinds.
Mr. BALL. What kind of curtains did it have?
Mrs. JOHNSON. Well, it just had side drapes and panels.
Mr. BALL. Were the curtains on curtain rods?
Mrs. JOHNSON. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. They were in the room when he rented it?
Mrs. JOHNSON. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Did Oswald ever talk to you about redecorating his room?
Mrs. JOHNSON. No sir; never mentioned it.
Mr. BALL. Did he ever talk to you about putting up new curtains in his room?
Mrs. JOHNSON. No, sir.


The only substantial evidence that Oswald had curtain rods with him are the testimonies of Frazier and his sister. That's it.

On one side is a large conspiracy involving Ruth Paine, Marina Oswald, Counsel Jenner, Agent Howlett and probably some of the officers who first searched the garage.
On the other side is a scared 19 year old boy who trusted his "friend".
I know which I find more likely.

[Martin Weidmann]

Evidence and arguments that support the proposal that Oswald did not carry curtain rods to work ( a shout -out to David Von Pein from whose site I lifted most of the following points):

1) Oswald denied carrying curtain rods to work.

Why would Oswald deny this? If he'd carried curtain rods to work that day he could've told the authorities this and told them where to find them. No curtain rods were ever found in the TSBD. Nobody in the TSBD (other than Frazier) reported seeing Oswald with a long package.

2) Why did Oswald need the curtain rods on Thursday night?

What was the urgency for curtain rods on Thursday? Why not pick them up on Friday night and bring them with him on Monday? Breaking his routine that weekend to go to Irving on the Thursday supports the view he was picking up his rifle because he would need that on Friday. It's doubtful he urgently needed curtain rods on Friday.

3) Why did Oswald leave the curtain rods at work when he left?

If Oswald is just an innocent guy in no rush to get away, why didn't he take the curtain rods with him when he left on Friday? He's made a trip especially to collect them on Thursday then simply walked off without them on Friday. This is easily explained if there were never any curtain rods in the first place.

4) Ruth Paine testifies on more than one occasion that there were just two curtain rods (which she had wrapped and placed on the shelf herself). She testified that this was the case at the WC hearings and the 1986 assassination "docu-trial":

VINCENT BUGLIOSI -- "Now you, in fact, DID have some curtain rods in
the garage, is that correct?"
MRS. PAINE -- "In the garage...yes."
MR. BUGLIOSI -- "After the assassination, they were still there."
MRS. PAINE -- "Yes, that's right."

5) On 3/23/64 Counsel Jenner and Agent Howlett visit Ruth Paine. As part of a lengthy deposition they record taking the curtain rods from the Paine garage:

Mr. JENNER - Now, Mrs. Paine, one of the things we said we might see is a package that was in your garage containing curtain rods.
Mrs. PAINE - Yes--as you recall.
Mr. JENNER - You said you would leave that package in precisely the place wherever it was last week when you were in Washington, D.C., and have you touched it since you came home?
Mrs. PAINE - I have not touched it.
Mr. JENNER - And is it now in the place it was to the best of your recollection on November 21, 1963?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes.

6) There is, of course, Marina Oswald's extensive testimony outlining Oswald's ownership and use of a rifle. Of interest is the discovery of the rifle in the Paine garage:

Mr. RANKIN. Do you know whether or not the rifle was carried in the station wagon?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, it was.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you have anything to do with loading it in there?
Mrs. OSWALD. No. Lee was loading everything on because I was pregnant at the time. But I know that Lee loaded the rifle on.
Mr. RANKIN. Was the rifle carried in some kind of a case when you went back with Mrs. Paine?
Mrs. OSWALD. After we arrived, I tried to put the bed, the child's crib together, the metallic parts, and I looked for a certain part, and I came upon something wrapped in a blanket. I thought that was part of the bed, but it turned out to be the rifle.

Marina confirms it was the same blanket discovered during the initial search of the garage on the day of the assassination:

Mr. RANKIN. When was the last time that you had noticed the rifle before that day?
Mrs. OSWALD. I said that I saw--for the first and last time I saw the rifle about a week after I had come to Mrs. Paine.
But, as I said, the rifle was wrapped in a blanket, and I was sure when the police had come that the rifle was still in the blanket, because it was all rolled together. And, therefore, when they took the blanket and the rifle was not in it, I was very much surprised.

The blanket was folded, rolled and tied with twine to form a container for the rifle. When discovered, Guy Rose stated he could still see the outline of the rifle .
So the curtain rods were still in the garage but the rifle was gone.

7) When asked why she thought Oswald showed up on the Thursday, Marina stated it was because he wanted to "make his peace" with her. As with the curtain rod excuse given to Frazier, this could have waited until Friday. Marina reveals that Oswald wanted to reunite with Marina and the children as soon as possible:

"On that day, he suggested that we rent an apartment in Dallas. He said that
he was tired of living alone and perhaps the reason for my being so angry was the fact that we were not living together. That if I want to he would rent an apartment in Dallas tomorrow--that he didn't want me to remain with Ruth any longer, but wanted me to live with him in Dallas."

He would rent a apartment "tomorrow" if she wanted it. He could hardly bring his family back to the cubby-hole he was living in and it seems he wanted to find somewhere for the family to live together "tomorrow". Hardly a man in need of sprucing up his existing room with some curtain rods.

No need for curtain rods



This picture of Oswald's room clearly shows perfectly adequate curtain rods. Not to mention the venetian blinds on the windows:



He mentioned nothing about needing them to Ruth Paine, who he supposedly just took them from, Mrs Roberts, the housekeeper where he lived or the Johnsons, the owners of the house:

Mrs. JOHNSON. Yes, sir; and it had curtains and venetian blinds.
Mr. BALL. What kind of curtains did it have?
Mrs. JOHNSON. Well, it just had side drapes and panels.
Mr. BALL. Were the curtains on curtain rods?
Mrs. JOHNSON. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. They were in the room when he rented it?
Mrs. JOHNSON. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Did Oswald ever talk to you about redecorating his room?
Mrs. JOHNSON. No sir; never mentioned it.
Mr. BALL. Did he ever talk to you about putting up new curtains in his room?
Mrs. JOHNSON. No, sir.


The only substantial evidence that Oswald had curtain rods with him are the testimonies of Frazier and his sister. That's it.

On one side is a large conspiracy involving Ruth Paine, Marina Oswald, Counsel Jenner, Agent Howlett and probably some of the officers who first searched the garage.
On the other side is a scared 19 year old boy who trusted his "friend".
I know which I find more likely.

Evidence and arguments that support the proposal that Oswald did not carry curtain rods to work

You could have left the word "evidence" out as it is all only arguments, like "why would he have done that" questions that are not proof of anything.

The only substantial evidence that Oswald had curtain rods with him are the testimonies of Frazier and his sister. That's it.

Wrong. Frazier and Randle never claimed that Oswald had curtain rods with him. Frazier only said that Oswald had told him that and Randle only knew about it because Frazier told her.

Two more comments about the curtain rods. First of all, the fact that Ruth Paine had two sets in her garage doesn't preclude that Oswald - without Paine knowing - had a set in his belongings as well, and secondly, prior to the photos that you posted being taken, the landlady was photographed putting up curtain rods in Oswald's room. You conveniently ignored that!

I know which I find more likely.

Nobody really cares what you find likely. It's what you can prove and even if Oswald did not bring curtain rods that morning, that still does not automatically mean that he brought a rifle. And even less so a MC rifle that you can not prove was ever in Ruth Paine's garage in the first place and was still there on 11/21/63.

[Dan O'meara]

He can't explain the DPD identification bureau document, showing SSA Howlett presenting curtain rods for fingerprinting on 03/15/64 and collecting them on the 24th (1 day after 2 sets were recovered in Ruth Paine's garage), which clearly implies a third set, so he dismisses it as "suspicious"

 
You can't explain it either! Here are your own words:

"Why Lt Day took it upon himself to write a different release datum on a copy of the document is the only thing I can not explain."

Yet you still accept it as valid! You choose to ignore the glaring falsification of this document. I don't.

He can't explain, during his polygraph, Frazier dismissing the TSBD bag as not the one he saw Oswald carry, so he simply calls the polygraph fake.

"Frazier said that it was possible that this was the case,"

That's from the report about Frazier's polygraph. You choose to ignore this.
This is what I actually had to say about my impressions of the polygraph:

"To me this doesn't seem like someone answering 'yes' or 'no'.
"It's possible but I don't think so", sounds a bit more conversational to me.
You will know more about these things than I do but I'm not sure how you get a definitive response when the person being tested changes their mind half way through an answer.
It's just the impression I get from this small fraction of the reported polygraph for which there is no record. Mustn't have seemed important enough to keep a record of it.
It doesn't seem like a real polygraph test to me but what I know about it comes from the movies. Not real life.
Does it seem real to you?"

Does it seem real to you Martin?
If it does, what is it that convinces you it's real?

If you make enough assumptions and ignore/dismiss factual evidence, you will always arrive at the conclusion you want to arrive at. It's classic Martin!