LHO's shirt

[Walt Cakebread]

You are going round and round in inconsistent circles.  Let's focus on just one point since you are having trouble.  Here is your explanation:  "The FBI finds fibers on the rifle, which they compare to the fibers of Oswald's arrest shirt and they find that the fibers are similar. Then they learn that various witnesses gave different descriptions of the shirt they saw Oswald wear on Friday morning, leaving them unable to argue that Oswald was wearing the same shirt all day (which btw is exactly what the WC later claimed)." 

WHY for f's sake would the FBI need to demonstrate that "Oswald was wearing the same shirt all day"?  If the evidentiary value from the FBI's perspective is that the fibers link Oswald's shirt to the rifle, they don't need to prove that Oswald wore the shirt that day.  The fibers from that shirt could have gotten on the rifle on some prior occasion.  There is absolutely no need for the FBI to coerce a witness to lie about the shirt Oswald was wearing on the bus.  I can't simplify it any further.  And the hilarious kicker, of course, is that the FBI didn't even suggest that the fibers proved that Oswald was wearing that particular shirt.  The entire purpose of this exercise in your conspiracy fantasy.

Here's the story that Hoover was propagating....   ( a damned lie )....

A 12-1 article in the Washington Star by Jerry O'Leary, a writer more than friendly with the FBI's Deke DeLoach, and someone upon whom the FBI regularly relies to get their stories before the public, declares: "PIECE OF OSWALD'S SHIRT FOUND SNAGGED IN RIFLE." It then goes on to claim "A fragment of Lee Harvey Oswald's shirt was snagged in the rifle that killed President John F. Kennedy, the FBI report of the assassination states. Disclosure of this evidence against the 24 year-old Oswald, himself slain two days after Mr. Kennedy's death, is regarded as one of the most solid pieces of evidence of his guilt. Officials said wisps of brown shirt material were caught in metal parts of the 6.5 mm Italian-made carbine found on the fifth floor of the Texas School Book Depository Building a few minutes after the fatal shots were fired on November 22. When Oswald was arrested two hours later, he was wearing a brown shirt of the same material. Oswald claimed he had changed his shirt in his rooming house after leaving the assassination area, but this proved to be untrue. FBI Crime Lab technicians determined by microscopic and other scientific means that the fragment of shirt material came from the shirt the ex-Marine was wearing."

The story presented  to the trusting and grieving American public at the time (December 63) said that The FBI had found a tuft of fibers on the butt plate of the TSBD carcano.  The FBI said that the carcano belonged to Lee Oswald and it was the rifle used to kill President Kennedy.  They also said that the tuft of fibers matched the shirt that Lee Oswald was wearing at the time of the murder, and that was the same shirt that Lee was wearing at the Texas Theater.

The entire tale is a damned lie.....

[Richard Smith]

WHY for f's sake would the FBI need to demonstrate that "Oswald was wearing the same shirt all day"?  If the evidentiary value from the FBI's perspective is that the fibers link Oswald's shirt to the rifle, they don't need to prove that Oswald wore the shirt that day. 

Here's what you don't understand. Saying that fibers found on the rifle are similar to those of Oswald's shirt, does not link Oswald's shirt to the rifle. What could have done that is a gunshot residue test on the shirt, but they never did that.

To link Oswald's shirt, in particular, to the rifle they needed something more, like for instance a witness stating that she saw Oswald wear that shirt on Friday morning.

The fibers from that shirt could have gotten on the rifle on some prior occasion.

You keep saying that and it is still just as meaningless as the first time you said it. Nondescript fibers that are merely similar to those of Oswald's arrest shirt (of which there were probably thousands similar shirts) that got on the rifle at some other occasion is proof of absolutely nothing. It certainly doesn't put the rifle in Oswald's hands on 11/22/63 at 12:30 PM. 

There is absolutely no need for the FBI to coerce a witness to lie about the shirt Oswald was wearing on the bus.

Who said anything about coercing a witness? It's easy enough to influence a fragile old lady into believing she saw something she actually didn't see. But regardless, your disbelieve that the FBI would do something like that is belied by the fact that they actually did go to Bledsoe's house and showed her the shirt.

If, as you claim there was no need to do that, then why did they do it?

And the hilarious kicker, of course, is that the FBI didn't even suggest that the fibers proved that Oswald was wearing that particular shirt.

Indeed, they left that conclusion to the WC, after they told them that the fibers found on the rifle were similar to those of the arrest shirt and after Bledsoe, in her completely incoherent testimony, gave them an opportunity to conclude that Oswald had been wearing the same shirt the whole day. In their report they actually said that Oswald had claimed that he had changed his shirt but that witness testimony proved that was not the case.

You clearly do not understand how these kind of games are played!

Hilarious.  The FBI has no need for anyone to confirm what shirt Oswald was wearing that day if, as you suggest, the fibers don't have evidentiary value.  They already know that the arrest shirt belongs to Oswald because he is wearing it when arrested.  They already know that the fibers are found on the rifle.  To the extent that the fibers are being used to link Oswald to the rifle, there is no need to have a witness confirm that he wore the shirt that particular day.  And if Bledsoe is not being coerced and Oswald wasn't wearing that shirt on the bus, then there is a significant risk that she confirms he was wearing a different shirt.  Why would she say otherwise? Again, however, it makes little difference what she says either because there is little value to the fiber evidence or because fibers from Oswald's shirt could have gotten on his rifle on a prior occasion. 

[Martin Weidmann]

Hilarious.  The FBI has no need for anyone to confirm what shirt Oswald was wearing that day if, as you suggest, the fibers don't have evidentiary value.  They already know that the arrest shirt belongs to Oswald because he is wearing it when arrested.  They already know that the fibers are found on the rifle.  To the extent that the fibers are being used to link Oswald to the rifle, there is no need to have a witness confirm that he wore the shirt that particular day.  And if Bledsoe is not being coerced and Oswald wasn't wearing that shirt on the bus, then there is a significant risk that she confirms he was wearing a different shirt.  Why would she say otherwise? Again, however, it makes little difference what she says either because there is little value to the fiber evidence or because fibers from Oswald's shirt could have gotten on his rifle on a prior occasion.

Take it up with the FBI. They were the ones who went to Bledsoe. They must have had a reason for it, don't you think? Now, try to think really hard, "Richard", what possible reason could they have had for taking that shirt to Bledsoe?

You know what, I'll give them a call first and let them know that "Richard Smith" doesn't agree with their methods.

Oh, btw, before I forget. Yesterday I was looking through some old documents and found several FD 302's I had forgotten about. They showed that the FBI not only took the arrest shirt to Bledsoe in early December 1963, but also to Truly, Reid and several other people. It seems they were desperate to find confirmation that Oswald had been wearing his arrest shirt all day. None of the other people they showed it to recognized or identified the shirt and they all gave a different description of the shirt they had seen.

All, except one; Mary Bledsoe..... and guess what, that's the one the WC went with to claim that Oswald had worn his arrest shirt in the morning. All the other statements went straight into the archives..... Go figure!

[Walt Cakebread]

Who cares?.. Spoken like a true contrarian

Btw; I don't need you to tell me what I imply or not. All I did was ask a question and it appears, as per usual, that you don't have an answer. It's duly noted.

No, the basic question would remain the same. Why show a piece of evidence to a witness prior to her testimony? Bledsoe said she saw Oswald on the bus. She didn't say a word about his shirt until after the FBI visit. Go figure!

Well, let's see shall we.... The FBI finds fibers on the rifle, which they compare to the fibers of Oswald's arrest shirt and they find that the fibers are similar. Then they learn that various witnesses gave different descriptions of the shirt they saw Oswald wear on Friday morning, leaving them unable to argue that Oswald was wearing the same shirt all day (which btw is exactly what the WC later claimed).

So, they need to try to restore the evidentiary value of the shirt. Enter Bledsoe.... do the math

You're not making any sense. If taking the arrest shirt to Bledsoe has no relevance, as you claim, then why did they do it? There is nothing baseless about the suggestion that the FBI must have had a good reason for taking the arrest shirt all the way from Washington to Dallas to show to a witness!

while denying that you are a conspiracy theorist.

You still haven't understood that there is a difference between somebody who asks questions about the evidence and points out inconsistancies and somebody who presents a theory (which I never have) and argues in defense of that theory (which I also have never done).

But then again, for narrow minded you, anybody who doesn't instantly agree with all the BS you call evidence must be a CT, right? If fits right in with the shallow and naieve nature you display here on a daily basis

The FBI finds fibers on the rifle, which they compare to the fibers of Oswald's arrest shirt and they find that the fibers are similar.

But that's not the story that Hoover released to the public.....

A December 1st article in the Washington Star by Jerry O'Leary, a writer more than friendly with the FBI's Deke DeLoach, and someone upon whom the FBI regularly relies to get their stories before the public, declares: "PIECE OF OSWALD'S SHIRT FOUND SNAGGED IN RIFLE." It then goes on to claim "A fragment of Lee Harvey Oswald's shirt was snagged in the rifle that killed President John F. Kennedy,

[Pat Speer]

Hilarious.  The FBI has no need for anyone to confirm what shirt Oswald was wearing that day if, as you suggest, the fibers don't have evidentiary value.  They already know that the arrest shirt belongs to Oswald because he is wearing it when arrested.  They already know that the fibers are found on the rifle.  To the extent that the fibers are being used to link Oswald to the rifle, there is no need to have a witness confirm that he wore the shirt that particular day.  And if Bledsoe is not being coerced and Oswald wasn't wearing that shirt on the bus, then there is a significant risk that she confirms he was wearing a different shirt.  Why would she say otherwise? Again, however, it makes little difference what she says either because there is little value to the fiber evidence or because fibers from Oswald's shirt could have gotten on his rifle on a prior occasion.

I've been quite sick of late, fellas, but I started looking at the forums again a few days ago and this thread caught my eye. While Richard makes some good points, he is clearly incorrect on one point. He claims the FBI could have dismissed the fiber evidence altogether, because there was no evidence the fibers on the rifle were added to the rifle on the 22nd.

But there was such evidence. The FBI's fiber expert, Paul Stombaugh, testified that the fibers were on top of the fingerprint powder. Well this strongly suggests the fibers were added AFTER Lt. Day dusted the rifle, and was unable to find any prints beyond the trigger guard prints, which he would later claimed were too smudged.

So, yeah, on the night of the 22nd, it was imperative that the DPD find some way to link Oswald to the rifle. They then sent the rifle to the FBI, who--by golly--found fibers from the arrest shirt on the rifle. Oh my. Now that's quite the coincidence.

[Richard Smith]

I've been quite sick of late, fellas, but I started looking at the forums again a few days ago and this thread caught my eye. While Richard makes some good points, he is clearly incorrect on one point. He claims the FBI could have dismissed the fiber evidence altogether, because there was no evidence the fibers on the rifle were added to the rifle on the 22nd.

But there was such evidence. The FBI's fiber expert, Paul Stombaugh, testified that the fibers were on top of the fingerprint powder. Well this strongly suggests the fibers were added AFTER Lt. Day dusted the rifle, and was unable to find any prints beyond the trigger guard prints, which he would later claimed were too smudged.

So, yeah, on the night of the 22nd, it was imperative that the DPD find some way to link Oswald to the rifle. They then sent the rifle to the FBI, who--by golly--found fibers from the arrest shirt on the rifle. Oh my. Now that's quite the coincidence.

Sorry to hear that you are not feeling well.  In terms of the fibers, the DPD has a paper trail including a serial number that links Oswald to the rifle.  If they are faking all this evidence to frame Oswald, then they just say that they found his fingerprints all over the rifle.  They don't go through this complicated and risky charade with the bus ride and coercing witnesses just to conclude that the fibers might come from that shirt. 

[Walt Cakebread]

I've been quite sick of late, fellas, but I started looking at the forums again a few days ago and this thread caught my eye. While Richard makes some good points, he is clearly incorrect on one point. He claims the FBI could have dismissed the fiber evidence altogether, because there was no evidence the fibers on the rifle were added to the rifle on the 22nd.

But there was such evidence. The FBI's fiber expert, Paul Stombaugh, testified that the fibers were on top of the fingerprint powder. Well this strongly suggests the fibers were added AFTER Lt. Day dusted the rifle, and was unable to find any prints beyond the trigger guard prints, which he would later claimed were too smudged.

So, yeah, on the night of the 22nd, it was imperative that the DPD find some way to link Oswald to the rifle. They then sent the rifle to the FBI, who--by golly--found fibers from the arrest shirt on the rifle. Oh my. Now that's quite the coincidence.

Hi Pat,   I'm truly sorry to hear that you been ill....  I hope it's just a passing illness, and you'll be joining us in discussions for many more years.    Although I don't agree 100% with you on a few points, by and large, I believe you're about 98% correct in your conclusions.   But no matter how well documented  you've been about a point there will always be the LNer's who have severe cases of craiialrectalitus and simply cannot see the truth.   

Stay well, and keep posting the truth...

[John Iacoletti]

They didn't have anything that would physically connect Oswald with that rifle. And even after finding those fibers, they still didn't.  Because fibers can't be linked to a specific garment.