LHO's shirt

[Alan Ford]

And none of the witnesses who saw someone on the 6th floor describe a reddish shirt

Exactly------------a light-colored shirt or sport shirt (i.e. with collar)

[Walt Cakebread]

I think Pat's analysis that the REDDISH BROWN shirt with the BUTTON DOWN COLLAR had been subject to forensic testing (his photograph of the collar with the four initials) is a red flag when considering whether LHO fired a rifle on the morning of the assassination.
Presumably this testing was negative as a positive test would have cemented LHO's guilt and would have been broadcast to the wider public by law enforcement.

Surely this must put doubt in the mind of those who believe in the LN theory?

The only argument that could be used against this is that LHO took off his shirt and fired the rifle while wearing the white T shirt and then put his shirt back on, however, it doesn't seem logical to do this, particularly if you believe that he had to then wipe down the rifle, hide it amongst the boxes and then rush downstairs within 90 seconds (if you believe the LN theory).

that LHO took off his shirt and fired the rifle while wearing the white T shirt and then put his shirt back on, however, it doesn't seem logical to do this, particularly if you believe that he had to then wipe down the rifle, hide it amongst the boxes and then rush downstairs within 90 seconds (if you believe the LN theory).

 LHO took off his shirt and fired the rifle while wearing the white T shirt

There were several witnesses on the street who saw a man behind a sixth floor window....ALL of them reported the man was wearing a light colored sport shirt with a collar.... NONE of them described  a  white T shirt.

 wipe down the rifle,

The fact that the rifle had been wiped clean of finger prints indicates that Lee wasn't the person who hid it.   If Lee had hid the rifle he would have known that the rifle could easily be traced to him so wiping it wouldn't have made sense....In fact he wouldn't have left the rifle where it could be found so easily ( if he had fired the rifle, or knew that JFK was going to be murdered.) 

hide it amongst the boxes

The rifle was WELL HIDDEN, ( Boone and Weitzman needed  flashlights to see the rifle)  and not hastily jammed into a place that was about 13 feet from the North Wall.  Two DPD detectives drew maps of the sixth floor "crime scene"  and both of their
 diagrams placed the rifle ON THE FLOOR--- 15  FEET  4 INCHES from the North wall.....  and four feet down at the bottom  of a crevasse that had a "lid" of boxes covering the top of the crevasse.

[Rick Plant]

Mary Bledsoe had the best view and recollection of Oswald's shirt. She said he wore a long sleeve brown colored shirt that was dirty. She stated there was missing buttons with a torn elbow and the front had a hole in it. 

[Alan Ford]

Mary Bledsoe had the best view and recollection of Oswald's shirt. She said he wore a long sleeve brown colored shirt that was dirty. She stated there was missing buttons with a torn elbow and the front had a hole in it.

She's describing the arrest shirt shown her by DPD, and is being WAY too helpful..........

[Dan O'meara]

that LHO took off his shirt and fired the rifle while wearing the white T shirt and then put his shirt back on, however, it doesn't seem logical to do this, particularly if you believe that he had to then wipe down the rifle, hide it amongst the boxes and then rush downstairs within 90 seconds (if you believe the LN theory).

 LHO took off his shirt and fired the rifle while wearing the white T shirt

There were several witnesses on the street who saw a man behind a sixth floor window....ALL of them reported the man was wearing a light colored sport shirt with a collar.... NONE of them described  a  white T shirt.

 wipe down the rifle,

The fact that the rifle had been wiped clean of finger prints indicates that Lee wasn't the person who hid it.   If Lee had hid the rifle he would have known that the rifle could easily be traced to him so wiping it wouldn't have made sense....In fact he wouldn't have left the rifle where it could be found so easily ( if he had fired the rifle, or knew that JFK was going to be murdered.) 

hide it amongst the boxes

The rifle was WELL HIDDEN, ( Boone and Weitzman needed  flashlights to see the rifle)  and not hastily jammed into a place that was about 13 feet from the North Wall.  Two DPD detectives drew maps of the sixth floor "crime scene"  and both of their
 diagrams placed the rifle ON THE FLOOR--- 15  FEET  4 INCHES from the North wall.....  and four feet down at the bottom  of a crevasse that had a "lid" of boxes covering the top of the crevasse.

Assuming this wasn't a crazed loner acting on a whim, let's assume it was a more organised affair.
We can instantly rule out the "toytown" rifle as the weapon of choice. It makes sense that was there to make a trail, no matter how tenuous, back to Oswald.
In this scenario I think it's safe to assume the wiped-down Mannlicher was already tucked away amongst the boxes whilst a big boys rifle was actually used for the assassination.

[William Pilgrim]

I do not subscribe to the LN theory but have no way of knowing the extent if any of LHO’s involvement in any covert operation run by god knows who, that day in Dallas.

Was he an intelligence asset and to what extent was he aware of the planned covert operation to assassinate JFK?

He could have:

   •   No knowledge of any covert operation
   •   Knowledge of a covert operation  that did not involve the assassination of JFK (i.e. he had been fed disinformation about what was going to happen)
   •   Knowledge of a covert operation that planned to assassinate JFK

I have no way of knowing what the answer to that question is.

One thing puzzles me about the framing of LHO for the assassination.

If I am going to set him up as the patsy then I can incriminate him by placing the Mannlicher rifle amongst the boxes on the 6th floor of the TSBD and the shells on the floor of the SN. What I must also do is ensure that he does not have an alibi for the time of the shooting.

I do not want him to be around his fellow workers either within the TSBD (e.g. in the lunchroom, on another floor in plain sight) or outside the TSBD watching the presidential parade. The latter scenario is fraught with risk as  LHO is liable to be filmed or photographed as the presidential parade passes the entrance to the TSBD.

What if LHO goes outside the front doors and inadvertently step out of the shadow or moves a step to the left or down a step from the position of the Prayer Man.
What if LHO moves to the position taken by Billy Lovelady or heaven forbid crosses the road to stand next to the man with the white cowboy hat, white jacket and white pants.

If any of these things happen then LHO has an alibi and the planted evidence on the 6th floor actually makes a conspiracy more believable.

I acknowledge that the above did not happen on the day but if any of them had then my plan to make LHO the patsy and propagate a LN theory  would be in tatters.

Is that a risk I would be willing to take?

[Steve M. Galbraith]

I do not subscribe to the LN theory but have no way of knowing the extent if any of LHO’s involvement in any covert operation run by god knows who, that day in Dallas.

Was he an intelligence asset and to what extent was he aware of the planned covert operation to assassinate JFK?

He could have:

   •   No knowledge of any covert operation
   •   Knowledge of a covert operation  that did not involve the assassination of JFK (i.e. he had been fed disinformation about what was going to happen)
   •   Knowledge of a covert operation that planned to assassinate JFK

I have no way of knowing what the answer to that question is.

One thing puzzles me about the framing of LHO for the assassination.

If I am going to set him up as the patsy then I can incriminate him by placing the Mannlicher rifle amongst the boxes on the 6th floor of the TSBD and the shells on the floor of the SN. What I must also do is ensure that he does not have an alibi for the time of the shooting.

I do not want him to be around his fellow workers either within the TSBD (e.g. in the lunchroom, on another floor in plain sight) or outside the TSBD watching the presidential parade. The latter scenario is fraught with risk as  LHO is liable to be filmed or photographed as the presidential parade passes the entrance to the TSBD.

What if LHO goes outside the front doors and inadvertently step out of the shadow or moves a step to the left or down a step from the position of the Prayer Man.
What if LHO moves to the position taken by Billy Lovelady or heaven forbid crosses the road to stand next to the man with the white cowboy hat, white jacket and white pants.

If any of these things happen then LHO has an alibi and the planted evidence on the 6th floor actually makes a conspiracy more believable.

I acknowledge that the above did not happen on the day but if any of them had then my plan to make LHO the patsy and propagate a LN theory  would be in tatters.

Is that a risk I would be willing to take?

Yes, you point out a major problem for these "non-Oswald involved" conspirators: in order to frame Oswald for the assassination he has to be "frameable." That is, he can't have an alibi. If he has an alibi, if others can vouch that he was with them, or he can show he was outside of the building at the time then he can't be framed.

As you also point out, the framers have to know that he has no alibi. That he was alone. They had to know where he was at the time of the shooting - in order to frame him for it - and they had to know where his co-workers were - so they couldn't say he didn't shoot JFK. If either of those happened then their entire plan collapses.

So how did they - indeed, how could they - know this? How did they know he was even in the building at the time of the shooting? And that he wasn't elsewhere? And how did they know his co-workers couldn't give him an alibi? They planted the rifle (allegedly) BEFORE his co-workers were interviewed. What happens to this act if they say to the media, to others, that he was with them and couldn't have shot JFK? They planted the rifle (and other evidence, e.g., the bag) and now it all falls apart.

These are matters they simply cannot control. And obstacles that I simply cannot see being overcome. There are limits to the ability of these conspirators - whoever you think they were; even powerful groups - to do these things.

[Martin Weidmann]

I do not subscribe to the LN theory but have no way of knowing the extent if any of LHO’s involvement in any covert operation run by god knows who, that day in Dallas.

Was he an intelligence asset and to what extent was he aware of the planned covert operation to assassinate JFK?

He could have:

   •   No knowledge of any covert operation
   •   Knowledge of a covert operation  that did not involve the assassination of JFK (i.e. he had been fed disinformation about what was going to happen)
   •   Knowledge of a covert operation that planned to assassinate JFK

I have no way of knowing what the answer to that question is.

One thing puzzles me about the framing of LHO for the assassination.

If I am going to set him up as the patsy then I can incriminate him by placing the Mannlicher rifle amongst the boxes on the 6th floor of the TSBD and the shells on the floor of the SN. What I must also do is ensure that he does not have an alibi for the time of the shooting.

I do not want him to be around his fellow workers either within the TSBD (e.g. in the lunchroom, on another floor in plain sight) or outside the TSBD watching the presidential parade. The latter scenario is fraught with risk as  LHO is liable to be filmed or photographed as the presidential parade passes the entrance to the TSBD.

What if LHO goes outside the front doors and inadvertently step out of the shadow or moves a step to the left or down a step from the position of the Prayer Man.
What if LHO moves to the position taken by Billy Lovelady or heaven forbid crosses the road to stand next to the man with the white cowboy hat, white jacket and white pants.

If any of these things happen then LHO has an alibi and the planted evidence on the 6th floor actually makes a conspiracy more believable.

I acknowledge that the above did not happen on the day but if any of them had then my plan to make LHO the patsy and propagate a LN theory  would be in tatters.

Is that a risk I would be willing to take?

You raise an interesting point. I don't believe that, if there was a conspiracy, Oswald could have been framed without some involvement at some level. Having said that, I have to take issue with the notion that it was vital for Oswald not to have an alibi. IMO it wouldn't really matter if he had an alibi, when the conspirators also control the cover up.

The assumption that people would be willing to come forward and provide an alibi for Oswald ignores the fact that the people were terrified. Brennan said he did not identify Oswald at the line up because he was afraid and feared for his family. Consider the circumstances; most witnesses of a serious crime don't come forward easily and voluntary. And this was the murder of a President! If he could get killed, so can anybody else, right? And then, two days later, Oswald gets killed, which means he no longer needs an alibi....

But even if some witnesses did come forward and provided an alibi for Oswald, just how easy would it be to conclude that those witnesses were simply wrong. Just like they said that Carolyn Arnold mistaken. Even if Oswald had an alibi, it still might not have done him any good.

Just have a look at what happened to Richard Rosario who was convicted of murder and spent 20 in jail for a murder he did not commit and could not have committed because he was in another state when it happened. He had 13 people who provided an alibi for him.

https://www.courthousenews.com/wrongfully-convicted-man-blames-nypd-for-unfair-trial/

And as for Oswald possibly being filmed or photographed, I'd just remind you that video and photo material has in fact disappeared or was "damaged".

So, no, I don't think that Oswald being seen somewhere else would necessarily be a problem if the conspirators also controlled the cover up.