SURPLUS CARCANO MODEL 91 TS RIFLE 6.5X52MM - USED SURPLUS CONDITION

[Charles Collins]

Apparently the market has recently been flooded with some of the Carcano carbines that have been stored in Ethiopia for the past 50-years. If I remember correctly this is the model that LHO (Hidell) ordered, but was sent a slightly longer version. Here is a link to a site that has them on sale:

https://palmettostatearmory.com/surplus-carcano-model-91-ts-rifle-6-5x52mm.html

Reading the description and some of the reviews, these are being sold as is and you should have them inspected before firing.

[Walt Cakebread]

Apparently the market has recently been flooded with some of the Carcano carbines that have been stored in Ethiopia for the past 50-years. If I remember correctly this is the model that LHO (Hidell) ordered, but was sent a slightly longer version. Here is a link to a site that has them on sale:

https://palmettostatearmory.com/surplus-carcano-model-91-ts-rifle-6-5x52mm.html

Reading the description and some of the reviews, these are being sold as is and you should have them inspected before firing.

If I remember correctly this is the model that LHO (Hidell) ordered, but was sent a slightly longer version.

The cacarno advertised is a model 91 TS ...The 91 TS is 36 1/16 inches long.  The Klein's ad that was used to order the TSBD rifle stated that the rifle was 40 inches long.  The rifle in the Kleins illustration appears to be a model 91/38 ( 40") with an odd ball rear sight.   The rear sight is an adjustable sight....  actually the illustration doesn't mean much because it is merely an illustration and not the actual rifle that was sent to Dallas.

[Charles Collins]

If I remember correctly this is the model that LHO (Hidell) ordered, but was sent a slightly longer version.

The cacarno advertised is a model 91 TS ...The 91 TS is 36 1/16 inches long.  The Klein's ad that was used to order the TSBD rifle stated that the rifle was 40 inches long.  The rifle in the Kleins illustration appears to be a model 91/38 ( 40") with an odd ball rear sight.   The rear sight is an adjustable sight....  actually the illustration doesn't mean much because it is merely an illustration and not the actual rifle that was sent to Dallas.

LATE ISSUE! 6.5 ITALIAN CARBINE. ONLY 36"" OVERALL, WEIGHS ONLY 5 1/2 LBS. SHOWS ONLY SLIGHT USE, LIGHTLY OILED, TEST FIRED AND HEAD-SPACED, READY FOR SHOOTING. TURNED DOWN BOLT, THUMB SAFETY, 6- SHOT CLIP-FED. REAR OPEN SIGHT. FAST LOADING AND FAST FIRING.
C20-Tll96. Specially Priced.........$12.88
C20-T750. Carbine with Brand New Good Quality 4X Scope--3/4" diameter as illustrated................$19.95 E20-T75l. 6.5 mm Italian military ammo with free 6-shot clip. l08 rds..................... ...$ 7.50
(2):
Figure 1 From the American Rifleman, February, 1963. This is from the original ad that Oswald ordered his gun from --identified from the coupon Department 358. The coupon itself is in the WC Exhibits as Waldman Exhibit 8.
  According to Mr. William J.
Waldman, vice-president of Klein's Sporting Goods, Inc., the firm's advertising program was set up to be able to identify the month and magazine in which a specific advertisement appeared through the department number on the ordering coupon. Waldman identified Department 358 from the "Hidell" coupon as coming from the American Rifleman, February, l963 (3), issue; this Department 358 coupon is in the exhibits...

[Walt Cakebread]

LATE ISSUE! 6.5 ITALIAN CARBINE. ONLY 36"" OVERALL, WEIGHS ONLY 5 1/2 LBS. SHOWS ONLY SLIGHT USE, LIGHTLY OILED, TEST FIRED AND HEAD-SPACED, READY FOR SHOOTING. TURNED DOWN BOLT, THUMB SAFETY, 6- SHOT CLIP-FED. REAR OPEN SIGHT. FAST LOADING AND FAST FIRING.
C20-Tll96. Specially Priced.........$12.88
C20-T750. Carbine with Brand New Good Quality 4X Scope--3/4" diameter as illustrated................$19.95 E20-T75l. 6.5 mm Italian military ammo with free 6-shot clip. l08 rds..................... ...$ 7.50
(2):
Figure 1 From the American Rifleman, February, 1963. This is from the original ad that Oswald ordered his gun from --identified from the coupon Department 358. The coupon itself is in the WC Exhibits as Waldman Exhibit 8.
  According to Mr. William J.


Waldman, vice-president of Klein's Sporting Goods, Inc., the firm's advertising program was set up to be able to identify the month and magazine in which a specific advertisement appeared through the department number on the ordering coupon. Waldman identified Department 358 from the "Hidell" coupon as coming from the American Rifleman, February, l963 (3), issue; this Department 358 coupon is in the exhibits...

Thank you for the correction.... I looked at the November 63 issue of Guns & Ammo ( dept # 472 )

Which incidentally is the same ad that Postal Inspector Harry Holmes, took to the DPD and said it was the ad from which Lee had ordered the rifle. 
Question...  How did PO inspector Holmes  know that Lee had ordered the rifle from Kleins before the FBI knew?

Holmes was wrong about that exact order blank...but he knew that that Lee Oswald was a "communist"  because he was receiving "communist literature" and he had received a rifle at the PO box. 

[Charles Collins]

Thank you for the correction.... I looked at the August 63 issue of Guns & Ammo ( dept # 472 )

Which incidentally is the same ad that Postal Inspector took to the DPD and said it was the ad from which Lee Had ordered the rifle.  Question...  How did PO inspector Holmes  know that Lee had ordered the rifle from Kleins before the FBI knew?

Holmes was wrong about that exact order blank...but he knew that that Lee Oswald was a "communist"  because he was receiving "communist literature" and he had received a rifle at the PO box.

How did PO inspector Holmes  know that Lee had ordered the rifle from Kleins before the FBI knew?


What makes you believe that Holmes knew before the FBI knew?

[Zeon Mason]

Thanks for info, Never know when you might need an old MC rifle to drop at the scene where you used your high precision quality semi auto rifle to fire 3 shots in about 4.8 secs and the last 2 shots fired almost simultaneously to make sure to get the head shot.

[Walt Cakebread]

How did PO inspector Holmes  know that Lee had ordered the rifle from Kleins before the FBI knew?


What makes you believe that Holmes knew before the FBI knew?

I can't remember.... But I believe that Holmes tore a page out of the November 1963 issue of Guns and Ammo, (dept 472) and took that page to Capt Fritz early Saturday morning.  Holmes said that he had discovered the ad and wanted to tell the investigators where the arch villain Lee Harrvey Osssssald  ( booooo Hisss) had bought the rifle.   

I believe that is BS!..... Holmes definitely was watching Lee Oswald's PO box ( at the request of the FBI)  and he knew exactly where that rifle had came from.   If we were to know the truth...We might find that it was Harry Holmes who told the FBI where to look to find evidence that the stinkin little murderin commie had got the rifle.

When Gary Savage wrote "1st Day Evidence " he presented copies of the photos and documents that the DPD had at the time they were working the case.   On page 248 / 249 Savage presents the page that Harry Holme tore out of the Guns and Ammo magazine ....   Both the Carcano and the snub noe .38 pistol are circled in that Klein add.

[Charles Collins]

I can't remember.... But I believe that Holmes tore a page out of the November 1963 issue of Guns and Ammo, (dept 472) and took that page to Capt Fritz early Saturday morning.  Holmes said that he had discovered the ad and wanted to tell the investigators where the arch villain Lee Harrvey Osssssald  ( booooo Hisss) had bought the rifle.   

I believe that is BS!..... Holmes definitely was watching Lee Oswald's PO box ( at the request of the FBI)  and he knew exactly where that rifle had came from.   If we were to know the truth...We might find that it was Harry Holmes who told the FBI where to look to find evidence that the stinkin little murderin commie had got the rifle.

When Gary Savage wrote "1st Day Evidence " he presented copies of the photos and documents that the DPD had at the time they were working the case.   On page 248 / 249 Savage presents the page that Harry Holme tore out of the Guns and Ammo magazine ....   Both the Carcano and the snub noe .38 pistol are circled in that Klein add.

I’m going by memory, so I could be off by a bit. But Carl Day rode back to his office with an FBI agent on 11/22/63 when he took the rifle to the evidence room. And the FBI agent obtained the serial number, etc. during the trip. So, by mid-afternoon the FBI was able to start tracking down where the rifle came from. There was only one gun shop in Dallas that had sold that make of rifle. The serial number didn’t match any that they had sold. However, the FBI did obtain the name and address of the importer. The importer traced the serial number as being sold to Klein’s Sporting Goods in Chicago. And by about 10:15 pm or so on 11/22/63 the FBI had Klein's employees looking for information regarding who they sold it to.

If Holmes took his advertisement to DPD on Saturday morning, it appears that it was of little or no benefit to the FBI.