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Offline W. Tracy Parnell

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    • W. Tracy Parnell Debunking JFK Conspiracy Theories
Newman Says Phillips Was Not Bishop
« on: March 07, 2021, 08:16:21 PM »
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JFK Assassination Forum

Newman Says Phillips Was Not Bishop
« on: March 07, 2021, 08:16:21 PM »


Offline Jerry Freeman

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Re: Newman Says Phillips Was Not Bishop
« Reply #1 on: March 08, 2021, 07:04:43 AM »
Interesting...but the Phillips/Bishop identity has been downplayed for years now has it not?
My only comment is that the CIA was not just a guy or two.
Through the years, the CIA has made countless overtures to confuse, falsify, and otherwise downplay any hint that its operatives had the slightest bit of involvement in the JFK Assn.
Look at their history right up to the present...a den of snakes with the director the biggest one.
When I was younger...I would have never thought.

Offline Tom Scully

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Re: Newman Says Phillips Was Not Bishop
« Reply #2 on: March 08, 2021, 12:20:49 PM »
Mr. Parnell, I think you know by now I am under the influence of "the facts" rather than a particular POV or agenda.

This results in being no more popular than you are among those who know what they know.

I don't think the opinions of several witnesses you describe in your post linked below are as cut and dry as you do.
William M. Kent AKA Doug Gupton and James K. Cogswell, are two, "for instance" examples.

https://wtracyparnell.blogspot.com/2020/01/the-bishop-sketch-who-did-it-look-like.html
VS
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=48681&relPageId=14&search=gupton_and%20bishop

https://archive.nytimes.com/www.nytimes.com/books/first/m/mackenzie-secrets.html
1997 By ANGUS MACKENZIE
"... Meanwhile, President Johnson had replaced Raborn as CIA director with Helms, who immediately made a crucial decision. He transferred responsibility for the Ramparts operation away from Osborn to a key CIA operative whose identity would not be known for years. Richard Ober's name is curiously absent from indexes of books about political spying of his era. Ober managed to keep in the shadows--a force behind the scenes, a man careful to say nothing that would reveal his true role. Few of his associates would even admit to knowing him. It was a breach of the code when one associate gave me a rough description of Ober as a big man with reddish skin and hair.

Ober was a counterintelligence specialist in the Directorate of Plans, sometimes known as the dirty tricks department. He had joined the Agency in 1948 and had a background that CIA directors trusted--Harvard class of 1943, army experience, graduate study in international affairs at Columbia University. At the CIA, Ober had completed two tours of duty abroad, returning to run clandestine operations from a desk and to study at the National War College before becoming the elite of the elite: a counterintelligence officer. Ober and his fellow counterintelligence agents worked in isolation from the rest of the Agency, in the most secret of the Agency's secret compartments. Counterintelligence involves destroying the effectiveness of foreign intelligence services and protecting one's own spies from exposure and subversion. During the 1950s and early 1960s counterintelligence had been widely expanded to all manner of internal police jobs, which now included stopping American publications from printing articles about questionable CIA operations..."

Quote
https://garyrevel.com/jfk/whitten.html
John Whitten: The CIA Official who Pursued the Truth of the JFK Assassination
Opinion/Historical Perspective by Gary Revel

Even in 1963 the CIA had it's own domestic operations within the US regardless of their legality. Much of it was centered in Miami, Florida and used some of the Cuban Exiles as contracted assets for covert operations. After the killing of JFK the CIA Director of Plans-Richard Helms, Counterintelligence Chief Jim Angleton and Special Operations Liason Richard Ober were ready to cover up any involvement of the CIA. Helms had contingency plans for the termination of a president who became a threat to the National Secutiry of the United States. One of those plans had been implemented by 'someone' and it had to be as if it the plan never existed.
.

Cogswell grew up in then rural Scarsdale, NY, no more than one mile from Richard Ober's home and both attended Phillips Exeter Academy at the same time in the late 1930s. Cogswell graduated from Amherst College in MA in 1953 after serving as a Naval officer during WWII. Ober's father, Harold, happened to be F Scott Fitzgerald's literary agent and Fitzgerald's daughter, Scottie, considered Richard Ober and his brother, Nathan, as her siblings. Cogswell happened to marry the owner of Kilmarnock Books' daughter, Nancy Van Ness, of nearby New Canaan, CT, in 1945.:

The Aspiring Sage of St. Paul
https://www.jstor.org/stable/41583118
Next, Cornelius Van Ness, a wealthy, Harvard-educated collector of rare books and manuscripts - also a newcomer to St. Paul - invited Tom to join him in opening a new bookstore. Calling it "Kilmarnock Books," Van Ness hired Tom as manager, giving him and Peggy badly needed extra income. The Kilmarnock, where tea by the fireplace was available every...
F Scott Fitzgerald, Love Letters, Used - AbeBooks
https://www.abebooks.co.uk/book-search/author/f-scott-fitzgerald/kw/love-letters/used/
This handwritten letter is 2 pages, 8.5 " x 11" written in ink from Great Neck when Scott and Tom Boyd were friends and colleagues on the St. Paul Daily News. In addition to being a book reviewer, Boyd also had a bookshop, Kilmarnock Books. Dimensions; 8.5" x 11". Signed boldly "As ever Scott " Detailed letter of provenance upon request.

With no prior mining management experience, Cogswell soon found himself working in Cuba in such a position.:

Cogswell's name turns up on pg. 42 of 2017 released docs describing 1960 inquiry into FPCC funding.:
https://documents.theblackvault.com/documents/jfk/NARA-Oct2017/NARA-Nov17-2017/docid-32175247.pdf

In 1942, DeMohrenschildt happened to rent a room in the DC home of then Navy Capt., Paul Joachim and shared the home with another naval officer tennant, Harry Hull, married to Cogswell's first cousin, an employee of OSS.
Quote
https://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/17374-what-is-a-break-through-thread-or-post-is-this-one/page/3/?tab=comments#comment-220402
Posted February 28, 2011 (edited)
Was the scenario involving James K. Cogswell III, actually a multi agency effort to deflect the HSCA's attention away from ONI? Too many coincidences... Cogswell had been married (2nd marriage in 1953) to the daughter of Will Farish III's inheritance trustee; Farish became GHW Bush's "best friend." De Mohrenshildt's 1942, Washington DC housemate, later Rear Admiral Harry Hull's wife was Cogswell's first cousin. Their landlord, later retired Rear Admiral Paul L. Joachim was brutally shot to death in Oct., 1962. Joachim's step-father was the designer of US Navy codebreakers' first Underwood Code Machine aka the Kata-Kana Typewriter. Carl A. Joerissen became Paul Joachim's stepfather when Paul was 8 years old. Later four star Navy Admiral William K Phillips became Harry Hull's step-uncle when Harry was 13 years old. Cogswell's sister, Theodora, is referred to as being part of the OP, by the HSCA. One of Cogswell's aunts, wife of his uncle, Capt. Francis Cogswell, retired from the CIA in 1954. His other aunt, Bianca Harrington Cogswell, daughter of Admiral James K Cogswell, I, first married a man named Clement, and then married Capt. Donald C. Bingham. When her daughter, Louisa, married Harry Hull, Cogswell's aunt became Harry's mother-in-law. Cogswell III brought Joseph Dryer and his knowledge of De Mohrenschildt to the attention of Dorothe Matlack....

JFK Facts » Meet Joan Mellen, a prolific provocateur of ...
https://jfkfacts.org/provocative-prolific-joan-mellen/#comment-869553
Cogswell's best man (1953 wedding to Joan Farish), George O. Walbridge II, is pictured with his boss Lem Billings in Havana in !955, with Carlos Prio's former PR flack. Both men worked for Francis McAdoo, brother of DeMohrenschildt's aunt by marriage, Nona McAdoo.
http://jfkforum.com/images/CogswellBillingsWalbridge.jpg

Cogswell brought Joseph Dryer to the attention of the HSCA in 1976.

JFK Facts » Was Oswald a CIA operative or not?
https://jfkfacts.org/was-oswald-a-cia-operative-or-not/#comment-157151
In Joan Mellen's 2012 book, "Our Man in Haiti," Joan quotes Joseph F. Dryer, Jr.'s description of his meeting with Clemard Charles and DeMohrenschildt on April 25. We know from declassified CIA documents that Wubriny/1 aka Thomas J. Devine, also met with both men in NYC on that same date.

https://www.maryferrell.org/php/cryptdb.php?id=AMTOUT-1
124-10286-10456:
01/11/66: Memorandum from SAC, Miami to Director: Subject: Anti-Fidel Castro Activities (Alleged Plans to Assassinate Fidel Castro) IS - Cuba: Pages 17-18: ..."Godoy advised he had received contributions of approximately $100.00 every three or four months from Mario Lazo, Cuban lawyer residing in the New York City area, who has written articles concerning the invasion of Playa Giron in the 'Readers' Digest,' monthly publication published at Pleasantville, New York. He also advised James K. Cogswell, former businessman in Cuba now residing at 14 E. 60th Street, New York City, had collected money from various friends of Cogswell in the New York City area, for the purpose of assisting in anti-Fidel Castro activities. He advised that neither Lazo or Cogswell were aware of any details concerning the aforementioned plan to possibly attempt to assassinate Fidel Castro..." - - - In an interview with the FBI in November, 1965, James Cogswell stated that Mario Lazo had one of the most prosperous law firms in Cuba, and that this law firm handled the affairs of the American Embassy in Havana for many years. https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=84490&search=124-10286-10461#relPageId=12&tab=page

Cogswell's parent's attended Richard Ober's brother Nathan's wedding in 1950. Matron of honor Lanahan was F Scott Fitzgerald's daughter, Scottie. Nathan Ober's bride's maid of honor, Patricia Southgate was the wife of Peter Matthiesen.

http://jfkforum.com/images/CogswellGuestAtNathanOber1950Wed1of2.jpg
http://jfkforum.com/images/CogswellGuestAtNathanOber1950Wed2of2.jpg

John Train - JFK Assassination Debate - The Education Forum
[Search domain educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/14613-john-train/] https://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/14613-john-train/
They were Plimpton (Harvard '48), Novelist Harold Humes (M.I.T. '48), Peter Matthiessen (Yale '50) and John P.C. Train (Harvard '50), son of the late lawyer-writer Arthur Train. Over Pernods at the Chaplain bar in Montparnasse, they agreed that the world badly needed a new little magazine, and scraped together $ 1,000 to start it.

Alexandra Mills to Marry in April - The New York Times
https://www.nytimes.com/1973/01/21/archives/alexandra-mills-to-marry-in-april.html
Jan 21, 1973 Devine is with Train, Cabot & Associates, a private‐investment company here. He is member of the Brook and the Racquet and Tennis Club in New York.

Quote
http://jfkforum.com/2017/10/01/are-we-there-yet/
...Meet the esteemed editor of the Allendale-Columbia School, class of 1944 Yearbook.. Nineteen years later and within two weeks of the final time he looked into Oswald’s eyes, DeMohrenschildt was looking into these eyes. Devine interrupted a long hiatus from CIA to meet George DeM. and Clemard Charles and Devine reported 8 additional contacts with DeMohrenschildt through the following month.

Devine went on to attend M.I.T. and, just a few months later was residing in the Sigma Chi fraternity house with Garry Coit and fifteen other fraternity mates.

Peter Dryer, another of the not forgotten ten on Devine’s list in the yearbook, was the brother of Joseph F. Dryer, Jr., who met DeMohrenschildt in separate NYC meeting, but on the very same day as Devine, on 25 April, 1963 !

Peter Dryer partnered with brother Joseph in Cuba and then in Guatemala and was also a member of Wyeth’s 1948 Princeton class.

In January, 1964, Garry Coit happened to become the CIA contact of Priscilla Johnson….

Marion Sims “Buz” Wyeth had become by 1949, close enough to Devine’s former classmate to invite Hawley Ward to be an usher in his wedding party.:..
Devine, Dryer's brother, Peter, and Hawley Ward were three of twenty classmates of grades K-8 at Allendale School in
which Devine's father Adrian was headmaster.
Wyeth was Priscilla's book editor who patiently waited 14 years for Priscilla to publish, "Marina and Lee". Wyeth's father architect designed Joseph Dryer's West Palm home, and the Wyeths also lived in West Palm, on Woodbridge, a dead end two lawns from DeMohrenschildt's in-laws, the Philip Sharples.
« Last Edit: March 08, 2021, 12:27:48 PM by Tom Scully »

JFK Assassination Forum

Re: Newman Says Phillips Was Not Bishop
« Reply #2 on: March 08, 2021, 12:20:49 PM »


Offline Mark A. Oblazney

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Re: Newman Says Phillips Was Not Bishop
« Reply #3 on: March 08, 2021, 02:22:28 PM »
Mr. Parnell, I think you know by now I am under the influence of "the facts" rather than a particular POV or agenda.

This results in being no more popular than you are among those who know what they know.

I don't think the opinions of several witnesses you describe in your post linked below are as cut and dry as you do.
William M. Kent AKA Doug Gupton and James K. Cogswell, are two, "for instance" examples.

https://wtracyparnell.blogspot.com/2020/01/the-bishop-sketch-who-did-it-look-like.html
VS
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=48681&relPageId=14&search=gupton_and%20bishop

https://archive.nytimes.com/www.nytimes.com/books/first/m/mackenzie-secrets.html
1997 By ANGUS MACKENZIE
"... Meanwhile, President Johnson had replaced Raborn as CIA director with Helms, who immediately made a crucial decision. He transferred responsibility for the Ramparts operation away from Osborn to a key CIA operative whose identity would not be known for years. Richard Ober's name is curiously absent from indexes of books about political spying of his era. Ober managed to keep in the shadows--a force behind the scenes, a man careful to say nothing that would reveal his true role. Few of his associates would even admit to knowing him. It was a breach of the code when one associate gave me a rough description of Ober as a big man with reddish skin and hair.

Ober was a counterintelligence specialist in the Directorate of Plans, sometimes known as the dirty tricks department. He had joined the Agency in 1948 and had a background that CIA directors trusted--Harvard class of 1943, army experience, graduate study in international affairs at Columbia University. At the CIA, Ober had completed two tours of duty abroad, returning to run clandestine operations from a desk and to study at the National War College before becoming the elite of the elite: a counterintelligence officer. Ober and his fellow counterintelligence agents worked in isolation from the rest of the Agency, in the most secret of the Agency's secret compartments. Counterintelligence involves destroying the effectiveness of foreign intelligence services and protecting one's own spies from exposure and subversion. During the 1950s and early 1960s counterintelligence had been widely expanded to all manner of internal police jobs, which now included stopping American publications from printing articles about questionable CIA operations..."
.

Cogswell grew up in then rural Scarsdale, NY, no more than one mile from Richard Ober's home and both attended Phillips Exeter Academy at the same time in the late 1930s. Cogswell graduated from Amherst College in MA in 1953 after serving as a Naval officer during WWII. Ober's father, Harold, happened to be F Scott Fitzgerald's literary agent and Fitzgerald's daughter, Scottie, considered Richard Ober and his brother, Nathan, as her siblings. Cogswell happened to marry the owner of Kilmarnock Books' daughter, Nancy Van Ness, of nearby New Canaan, CT, in 1945.:

The Aspiring Sage of St. Paul
https://www.jstor.org/stable/41583118
Next, Cornelius Van Ness, a wealthy, Harvard-educated collector of rare books and manuscripts - also a newcomer to St. Paul - invited Tom to join him in opening a new bookstore. Calling it "Kilmarnock Books," Van Ness hired Tom as manager, giving him and Peggy badly needed extra income. The Kilmarnock, where tea by the fireplace was available every...
F Scott Fitzgerald, Love Letters, Used - AbeBooks
https://www.abebooks.co.uk/book-search/author/f-scott-fitzgerald/kw/love-letters/used/
This handwritten letter is 2 pages, 8.5 " x 11" written in ink from Great Neck when Scott and Tom Boyd were friends and colleagues on the St. Paul Daily News. In addition to being a book reviewer, Boyd also had a bookshop, Kilmarnock Books. Dimensions; 8.5" x 11". Signed boldly "As ever Scott " Detailed letter of provenance upon request.

With no prior mining management experience, Cogswell soon found himself working in Cuba in such a position.:

Cogswell's name turns up on pg. 42 of 2017 released docs describing 1960 inquiry into FPCC funding.:
https://documents.theblackvault.com/documents/jfk/NARA-Oct2017/NARA-Nov17-2017/docid-32175247.pdf

In 1942, DeMohrenschildt happened to rent a room in the DC home of then Navy Capt., Paul Joachim and shared the home with another naval officer tennant, Harry Hull, married to Cogswell's first cousin, an employee of OSS.
JFK Facts » Meet Joan Mellen, a prolific provocateur of ...
https://jfkfacts.org/provocative-prolific-joan-mellen/#comment-869553
Cogswell's best man (1953 wedding to Joan Farish), George O. Walbridge II, is pictured with his boss Lem Billings in Havana in !955, with Carlos Prio's former PR flack. Both men worked for Francis McAdoo, brother of DeMohrenschildt's aunt by marriage, Nona McAdoo.
http://jfkforum.com/images/CogswellBillingsWalbridge.jpg

Cogswell brought Joseph Dryer to the attention of the HSCA in 1976.

JFK Facts » Was Oswald a CIA operative or not?
https://jfkfacts.org/was-oswald-a-cia-operative-or-not/#comment-157151
In Joan Mellen's 2012 book, "Our Man in Haiti," Joan quotes Joseph F. Dryer, Jr.'s description of his meeting with Clemard Charles and DeMohrenschildt on April 25. We know from declassified CIA documents that Wubriny/1 aka Thomas J. Devine, also met with both men in NYC on that same date.

https://www.maryferrell.org/php/cryptdb.php?id=AMTOUT-1
124-10286-10456:
01/11/66: Memorandum from SAC, Miami to Director: Subject: Anti-Fidel Castro Activities (Alleged Plans to Assassinate Fidel Castro) IS - Cuba: Pages 17-18: ..."Godoy advised he had received contributions of approximately $100.00 every three or four months from Mario Lazo, Cuban lawyer residing in the New York City area, who has written articles concerning the invasion of Playa Giron in the 'Readers' Digest,' monthly publication published at Pleasantville, New York. He also advised James K. Cogswell, former businessman in Cuba now residing at 14 E. 60th Street, New York City, had collected money from various friends of Cogswell in the New York City area, for the purpose of assisting in anti-Fidel Castro activities. He advised that neither Lazo or Cogswell were aware of any details concerning the aforementioned plan to possibly attempt to assassinate Fidel Castro..." - - - In an interview with the FBI in November, 1965, James Cogswell stated that Mario Lazo had one of the most prosperous law firms in Cuba, and that this law firm handled the affairs of the American Embassy in Havana for many years. https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=84490&search=124-10286-10461#relPageId=12&tab=page

Cogswell's parent's attended Richard Ober's brother Nathan's wedding in 1950. Matron of honor Lanahan was F Scott Fitzgerald's daughter, Scottie. Nathan Ober's bride's maid of honor, Patricia Southgate was the wife of Peter Matthiesen.

http://jfkforum.com/images/CogswellGuestAtNathanOber1950Wed1of2.jpg
http://jfkforum.com/images/CogswellGuestAtNathanOber1950Wed2of2.jpg

John Train - JFK Assassination Debate - The Education Forum
[Search domain educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/14613-john-train/] https://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/14613-john-train/
They were Plimpton (Harvard '48), Novelist Harold Humes (M.I.T. '48), Peter Matthiessen (Yale '50) and John P.C. Train (Harvard '50), son of the late lawyer-writer Arthur Train. Over Pernods at the Chaplain bar in Montparnasse, they agreed that the world badly needed a new little magazine, and scraped together $ 1,000 to start it.

Alexandra Mills to Marry in April - The New York Times
https://www.nytimes.com/1973/01/21/archives/alexandra-mills-to-marry-in-april.html
Jan 21, 1973 Devine is with Train, Cabot & Associates, a private‐investment company here. He is member of the Brook and the Racquet and Tennis Club in New York.
Devine, Dryer's brother, Peter, and Hawley Ward were three of twenty classmates of grades K-8 at Allendale School in
which Devine's father Adrian was headmaster.
Wyeth was Priscilla's book editor who patiently waited 14 years for Priscilla to publish, "Marina and Lee". Wyeth's father architect designed Joseph Dryer's West Palm home, and the Wyeths also lived in West Palm, on Woodbridge, a dead end two lawns from DeMohrenschildt's in-laws, the Philip Sharples.
   oh, well..... good to see you back   et 'en forme'
« Last Edit: March 10, 2021, 07:49:58 PM by Mark A. Oblazney »

Offline Walt Cakebread

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Re: Newman Says Phillips Was Not Bishop
« Reply #4 on: March 08, 2021, 03:02:07 PM »
Interesting...but the Phillips/Bishop identity has been downplayed for years now has it not?
My only comment is that the CIA was not just a guy or two.
Through the years, the CIA has made countless overtures to confuse, falsify, and otherwise downplay any hint that its operatives had the slightest bit of involvement in the JFK Assn.
Look at their history right up to the present...a den of snakes with the director the biggest one.
When I was younger...I would have never thought.

Totally contrary to what we were taught ....   Truth and justice.   Hogwash!

JFK Assassination Forum

Re: Newman Says Phillips Was Not Bishop
« Reply #4 on: March 08, 2021, 03:02:07 PM »


Offline Steve M. Galbraith

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Re: Newman Says Phillips Was Not Bishop
« Reply #5 on: March 08, 2021, 07:52:25 PM »
Interesting...but the Phillips/Bishop identity has been downplayed for years now has it not?
My only comment is that the CIA was not just a guy or two.
Through the years, the CIA has made countless overtures to confuse, falsify, and otherwise downplay any hint that its operatives had the slightest bit of involvement in the JFK Assn.
Look at their history right up to the present...a den of snakes with the director the biggest one.
When I was younger...I would have never thought.
As Tracy points out in his articles on this subject, the "Bishop was Phillips and he controlled Oswald" claim is a, if not the key argument behind the belief for major conspiracy researchers that elements of the CIA were behind the assassination. This Oswald/Phillips alleged sighting made by Veciana connects, these conspiracists believe, Oswald directly with an important senior CIA officer - David Atlee Phillips.

This is why the arguments by Newman - who is a major conspiracy historian who has also written other influential books (one on JFK and Vietnam) - are critical. If he can document that Phillips was not Bishop then much of the CIA was involved theory collapses. At least the major one that involves Phillips who is a sort of the Great White Whale in this theory. It's also why many "CIA did it believers" are challenging Newman's claims. Again, if Bishop was not Phillips and the person who allegedly met Oswald was not Phillips then how does one connect Phillips, if not the CIA, to the assassination? It's a difficult task.

So it's not an old discarded claim. It's, as Tracy shows, a pretty important one among JFK conspiracy researchers/writers/authors.

As to your "CIA" and "operatives" and downplaying. What "operatives" are you talking about? And what "downplaying" did they do? In this entire matter, it was the CIA that was knocking down allegations that Castro was behind the assassination. If they were behind it why wouldn't they want to blame Castro? And thereby justify an invasion? Isn't that why they did this? Because JFK was too "soft" on communism? Maybe start it on another thread and not here.
« Last Edit: March 09, 2021, 03:51:17 PM by Steve M. Galbraith »

Offline Steve M. Galbraith

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Re: Newman Says Phillips Was Not Bishop
« Reply #6 on: March 08, 2021, 09:14:22 PM »
http://wtracyparnell.blogspot.com/2021/03/newman-says-phillips-was-not-bishop.html
As you've pointed out here and before - and did Newman respond to these points directly or indirectly? - if Veciana's mission was to divert attention away from the Pentagon's supposed role in the assassination and towards the CIA then why was he so vague, to say the least, for so long about who Bishop worked for? I.e., the CIA. And really was? I.e., one David Atlee Phillips, a CIA officer. And this vagueness and ambiguousness continued well after Phillips was dead.

If the goal was to send a message then Veciana garbled the message completely.

Newman, it seems to me, has another problem. If the Pentagon was behind the assassination because they viewed JFK as too soft on communism - specifically his reluctance to take overt action in Laos and Cuba and his unwilligness in Vietnam (as Newman argued in his book on JFK and Vietnam) - then why did the post-assassination investigations all clear Castro of any role? If the framing of Oswald was, in part, to blame Castro and thus justify an invasion then where was the Pentagon promoting this connection? I am not aware of any.

And Vietnam. Nobody could predict in November of 1963 how that would go. Diem had just been overthrown and the hope was that a successor government would be able to strengthen the South's ability to fight the war themselves. The Buddhist crisis would be over and a stable government with the support of the people looked possible. It all appeared winnable. At that time. It was only after the collapse of subsequent governments and the increased activity of the North that forced LBJ's response. All of that is obvious now but not so obvious then.

So the need to remove JFK for Vietnam was, at that time, unnecessary. It wasn't a crisis situation and didn't look like it would be one. Killing JFK is committing outright treason; you'd better have a real good reason to get people to even consider going along with something like that outrage. The possibility that in the future JFK wouldn't send in troops isn't it.
« Last Edit: March 08, 2021, 09:39:43 PM by Steve M. Galbraith »

Offline W. Tracy Parnell

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    • W. Tracy Parnell Debunking JFK Conspiracy Theories
Re: Newman Says Phillips Was Not Bishop
« Reply #7 on: March 09, 2021, 12:50:33 AM »
As you've pointed out here and before - and did Newman respond to these points directly or indirectly? - if Veciana's mission was to divert attention away from the Pentagon's supposed role in the assassination and towards the CIA then why was he so vague, to say the least, for so long about who Bishop worked for? I.e., the CIA. And really was? I.e., one David Atlee Phillips, a CIA officer. And this vagueness and ambiguousness continued well after Phillips was dead.

He did not address this.

If the goal was to send a message then Veciana garbled the message completely.

Agreed.

Newman, it seems to me, has another problem. If the Pentagon was behind the assassination because they viewed JFK as too soft on communism - specifically his reluctance to take overt action in Laos and Cuba and his unwilligness in Vietnam (as Newman argued in his book on JFK and Vietnam) - then why did the post-assassination investigations all clear Castro of any role? If the framing of Oswald was, in part, to blame Castro and thus justify an invasion then where was the Pentagon promoting this connection? I am not aware of any.

Doesn't make sense to me either.

And Vietnam. Nobody could predict in November of 1963 how that would go. Diem had just been overthrown and the hope was that a successor government would be able to strengthen the South's ability to fight the war themselves. The Buddhist crisis would be over and a stable government with the support of the people looked possible. It all appeared winnable. At that time. It was only after the collapse of subsequent governments and the increased activity of the North that forced LBJ's response. All of that is obvious now but not so obvious then.

So the need to remove JFK for Vietnam was, at that time, unnecessary. It wasn't a crisis situation and didn't look like it would be one. Killing JFK is committing outright treason; you'd better have a real good reason to get people to even consider going along with something like that outrage. The possibility that in the future JFK wouldn't send in troops isn't it.

I have always thought the "JFK had to be killed" (for whatever reason) argument is weak. If every faction that disagreed with a President "had" to kill him, there would be a lot more assassinations.

JFK Assassination Forum

Re: Newman Says Phillips Was Not Bishop
« Reply #7 on: March 09, 2021, 12:50:33 AM »