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Author Topic: JFK got the U.S into Vietnam (not Johnson)  (Read 9361 times)

Offline Gerry Down

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Re: JFK got the U.S into Vietnam (not Johnson)
« Reply #32 on: April 09, 2021, 01:37:48 PM »
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So your original question needs modifying to "why didn’t he get the US out?"

I guess. Its something that has to be considered. "He was going to pull the US out of Vietnam" as Oliver Stone and the likes would say should be modified to "Why didn't he pull the US out of Vietnam as soon as he became President?".

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Re: JFK got the U.S into Vietnam (not Johnson)
« Reply #32 on: April 09, 2021, 01:37:48 PM »


Offline Jon Banks

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Re: JFK got the U.S into Vietnam (not Johnson)
« Reply #33 on: April 09, 2021, 02:36:09 PM »
Dwight Eisenhower, not JFK, is the first President to send US military advisors to Vietnam.

I do think Kennedy wanted to get out of Vietnam but   like any other US President, he wanted to withdraw in the least politically costly way. No President wants to “lose” a war.

Also, if there was a Conspiracy in Kennedy’s assassination, it more likely involved his Cuba policies, not his Vietnam policies...
« Last Edit: April 09, 2021, 02:39:13 PM by Jon Banks »

Offline Gerry Down

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Re: JFK got the U.S into Vietnam (not Johnson)
« Reply #34 on: April 09, 2021, 02:38:20 PM »
Dwight Eisenhower, not JFK, is the first President to send US military advisors to Vietnam.

Who was the first to bring them back?

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Re: JFK got the U.S into Vietnam (not Johnson)
« Reply #34 on: April 09, 2021, 02:38:20 PM »


Offline Colin Crow

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Re: JFK got the U.S into Vietnam (not Johnson)
« Reply #35 on: April 10, 2021, 01:48:57 AM »
https://thediplomat.com/2015/04/nixons-retrospective-on-the-vietnam-war/

An interesting read. One could make an argument for Nixon at both ends.

Offline Charles Collins

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Re: JFK got the U.S into Vietnam (not Johnson)
« Reply #36 on: April 10, 2021, 02:19:30 AM »
https://thediplomat.com/2015/04/nixons-retrospective-on-the-vietnam-war/

An interesting read. One could make an argument for Nixon at both ends.

There were way too many major and critical mistakes made by multiple entities during the US involvement. And spin and finger pointing are always a part of the political process. I believe that we have learned from the mistakes. Hopefully, we can use that knowledge to avoid future mistakes. Thanks for the link, a worthwhile read.

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Re: JFK got the U.S into Vietnam (not Johnson)
« Reply #36 on: April 10, 2021, 02:19:30 AM »


Offline Richard Smith

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Re: JFK got the U.S into Vietnam (not Johnson)
« Reply #37 on: April 12, 2021, 05:16:10 PM »
In retrospect, it is easy to see where mistakes were made in Vietnam and the futility of that conflict.  In the context of those times, however, the Cold War including the containment of commie expansion was the highest political priority.  Dems politicians were vulnerable to suggestions that they were being soft on dealing with the Communists.  As a result, the political reality for JFK in running for re-election in 1964 was that he had no real option but to maintain the US presence in Vietnam.  LBJ was caught in the same trap.  There was no real political option to say whoops we made a mistake and let the commies overrun S. Vietnam. It was a trap.  As more and more resources and lives were devoted to the cause, it became all the more politically impossible to admit a miscalculation had been made.   It took over a decade and the façade of a peace treaty before that could happen.   As s result, it's highly unlikely JFK would have done anything much differently from LBJ.  But Oswald made what JFK might have done no longer relevant.  So thank him if you want to believe JFK would somehow have avoided that disaster.

Offline Steve M. Galbraith

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Re: JFK got the U.S into Vietnam (not Johnson)
« Reply #38 on: April 13, 2021, 05:43:22 PM »
In retrospect, it is easy to see where mistakes were made in Vietnam and the futility of that conflict.  In the context of those times, however, the Cold War including the containment of commie expansion was the highest political priority.  Dems politicians were vulnerable to suggestions that they were being soft on dealing with the Communists.  As a result, the political reality for JFK in running for re-election in 1964 was that he had no real option but to maintain the US presence in Vietnam.  LBJ was caught in the same trap.  There was no real political option to say whoops we made a mistake and let the commies overrun S. Vietnam. It was a trap.  As more and more resources and lives were devoted to the cause, it became all the more politically impossible to admit a miscalculation had been made.   It took over a decade and the façade of a peace treaty before that could happen.   As s result, it's highly unlikely JFK would have done anything much differently from LBJ.  But Oswald made what JFK might have done no longer relevant.  So thank him if you want to believe JFK would somehow have avoided that disaster.
As cited in the original post - the discussion about the overthrow of Diem - JFK made a series of comittments to Vietnam that LBJ inherited and was forced to deal with. JFK may have not originally gotten the US into that swamp in the technical sense of being the first to send in troops et cetera; but his repeated statements about the dangers that a loss of the South posed to US interests and security (compounded by, as mentioned above, his support for the removal of Diem) made the possibility of simply reversing course, i.e., withdrawing troops, nonexistent.

One can argue that those statements were simply for domestic consumption, to fight off the charge of "losing Vietnam" the way Democrats earlier had to respond to the claim of "losing China", but they had real consequences for LBJ. JFK may have figured a way out of his rhetorical trap; but LBJ didn't have that option or ability. Or didn't think he did.  As LBJ himself said in several calls he felt trapped, that it was a mess but he didn't know how to get out.

In any case, the claim that JFK was murdered because, in part, he had decided by November of 1963 to withdraw from Vietnam is simply not, in my view, supported by the facts. RFK said no decision had been made; McNamara said no such decision had been made; Rusk said no such decision had been made; and the Pentagon Papers show no such decision had been made.


« Last Edit: April 13, 2021, 07:35:46 PM by Steve M. Galbraith »

Offline Jon Banks

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Re: JFK got the U.S into Vietnam (not Johnson)
« Reply #39 on: April 13, 2021, 06:46:32 PM »
As cited in the original post - the discussion about the overthrow of Diem - JFK made a series of comittments to Vietnam that LBJ inherited and was forced to deal with. JFK may have not originally gotten the US into that swamp in the technical sense of being the first to send in troops et cetera; but his repeated statements about the dangers that a loss of the South to US interests and security (compounded by, as mentioned above, his support for the removal of Diem) made the possibility of simply reversing course, i.e., withdrawing troops, nonexistent.

One can argue that those statements were simply for domestic consumption, to fight off the charge of "losing Vietnam" the way Democrats earlier had to respond to the claim of "losing China", but they had real consequences for LBJ. JFK may have figured out a way out of his rhetorical trap; but LBJ didn't have that option.  And LBJ himself said in several calls that he felt trapped; that it was a mess but he didn't know how to get out.

In any case, the claim that JFK was murdered because, in part, he had decided by November of 1963 to withdraw from Vietnam is simply not, in my view, supported by the facts. RFK said no decision had been made; McNamara said no such decision had been made; Rusk said no such decision had been made; and the Pentagon Papers show no such decision had been made.

I don't completely disagree with you, I just think a lot of folks in the LN community discount the huge amount of stuff we've learned about JFK, the Joint Chiefs, and Vietnam since the 1970s.

JFK clearly was reluctant to escalate in Vietnam and fought with the Joint Chiefs over it. He also was sympathetic to the anti-Colonial movements in Asia and Africa at the time. He understood the anti-Colonial aspect of the Vietnam conflict because he visited Vietnam in the 1950s back when the French had their Vietnam quagmire. he campaigned as a rabid Cold Warrior in 1960 but I think by now, most people understand that was just politics. Including the "Missile Gap" stuff that he knew was a lie. 

So while I think it would've been difficult politically for Kennedy to withdraw from Vietnam in his second term(assuming he would've won re-election) I don't think we know for certain that he would've followed the same path as LBJ, who clearly had a better relationship with the Pentagon than Kennedy.

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Re: JFK got the U.S into Vietnam (not Johnson)
« Reply #39 on: April 13, 2021, 06:46:32 PM »