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Author Topic: Et tu, Bonnie?  (Read 71980 times)

Offline Alan Ford

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Re: Et tu, Bonnie?
« Reply #440 on: April 26, 2021, 01:28:52 AM »
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Utter fantasy.
Unsupported, unfounded fantasy.
There is zero evidence for your silly theory.

Just for fun...

~Grin~

You gave as your knock-down argument that the only way Mr Williams would have been let leave the sixth floor is if he were part of the thing. I knocked your knock-down argument down by showing what a silly premise it was founded on. And now you're waving your hands in embarrassment. Funny!

Your belief that whoever planned to participate in this assassination from the sixth floor trusted to luck that no employees would decide to watch the P. Parade from up there is obviously the height of absurdity. 'Gee, guys, fingers crossed none of the workers come up... Whatever we do, let's NOT have a contingency plan in place for that...'  :D

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Is the "elderly negro" in the SN part of your security team?

It's not a security team, duh. It's the assassination team. And if the 'elderly negro' seen by Mr Rowland is not Mr Eddie Piper, then yes------he is part of the team of non-employees on the sixth floor.

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Why don't all of these men who were turned away from the 6th floor report what they've seen? What makes you fantasize that this group of men wouldn't have the balls to tell the DPD what they saw?

~Yawn~

Already answered, Mr O'Meara

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Why didn't Baker or Truly report your security team?

It wasn't a security team, duh.

Mr Truly was in on the thing---------and he made sure to keep Officer Baker off the sixth floor.

But------of course-------Officer Baker did report on his encounter with one of the men ("As we reached the third or fourth floor, I saw a man walking away from the stairway..."). Mr Truly facilitated that man's escape by vouching for him as an employee

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Why didn't Piper or West report seeing them enter or leave the building?

Either they didn't see them or they did and liked being alive.

What else ya got, Mr O'Meara?  Thumb1:
« Last Edit: April 26, 2021, 01:29:47 AM by Alan Ford »

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Re: Et tu, Bonnie?
« Reply #440 on: April 26, 2021, 01:28:52 AM »


Online Dan O'meara

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Re: Et tu, Bonnie?
« Reply #441 on: April 26, 2021, 02:10:42 AM »
~Grin~

You gave as your knock-down argument that the only way Mr Williams would have been let leave the sixth floor is if he were part of the thing. I knocked your knock-down argument down by showing what a silly premise it was founded on. And now you're waving your hands in embarrassment. Funny!

What's funny is that I've never said anything like this anywhere.
Your fantasizing isn't just reserved for your crazy theories. You like to introduce it into the actual debate.
Think about it Alan - if he was part of it why would he be "let leave".

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Your belief that whoever planned to participate in this assassination from the sixth floor trusted to luck that no employees would decide to watch the P. Parade from up there is obviously the height of absurdity. 'Gee, guys, fingers crossed none of the workers come up... Whatever we do, let's NOT have a contingency plan in place for that...'  :D

Who do the lunch remains belong to?

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It's not a security team, duh. It's the assassination team. And if the 'elderly negro' seen by Mr Rowland is not Mr Eddie Piper, then yes------he is part of the team of non-employees on the sixth floor.

"3) BRW was one of several manual employees who were kept off the sixth floor by 'security' men"

 :D  It's you who labelled them as 'security', not me!
Unbelievable.
And you still think it might be Eddie Piper!!  :D :D

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Already answered, Mr O'Meara

You've not answered it at all.
Why would all these men fear for their lives?
Why would every single one of them not have the strength of character to say what they saw?
Other witnesses reported seeing a gunman on the 6th floor and they went to the authorities immediately. Did the TSBD only hire cowards?
This is just a convenient  BS: excuse for you to hide behind.

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It wasn't a security team, duh.

Mr Truly was in on the thing---------and he made sure to keep Officer Baker off the sixth floor.

But------of course-------Officer Baker did report on his encounter with one of the men ("As we reached the third or fourth floor, I saw a man walking away from the stairway..."). Mr Truly facilitated that man's escape by vouching for him as an employee

So your security team didn't leave the 6th floor together?
Why didn't Dorothy Garner see any of them leaving? Let me guess - she feared for her life  ;)

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Either they didn't see them or they did and liked being alive.

See above

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What else ya got, Mr O'Meara?  Thumb1:

Theories based on witness testimony and physical evidence.
Give it a try some time, you might enjoy it.
 Thumb1:

Offline Colin Crow

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Re: Et tu, Bonnie?
« Reply #442 on: April 26, 2021, 02:49:53 AM »
"Then just forget the testimonies of others that made the scenario impossible."

The testimonies they have to forget include those of Jarman and Norman, who put BRW's arrival on the 5th floor after 12:25 PM
Rowland's testimony which places the gunman in the south-west corner of the 6th floor around 12:15 PM.
This is confirmed by Roger Craig's testimony - minutes after the shooting Rowland is telling him there was a gunman with a scoped rifle in the south-west corner of the building. This must also be ignored.
The testimonies of all the officers who put the lunch remains in/on the SN must also be ignored as they put BRW in the SN having his lunch which supports Rowland's testimony and also undermine BRW's claim he had his lunch between the third and fourth windows.
They must even ignore BRW's own testimony as he estimates his arrival on the 5th floor at 12:20 PM
They must also ignore Eddie Piper's testimony as it puts Oswald on the first floor at noon when he is supposed to be hiding in the SN.

This seems like a really large amount of testimonial evidence that has to be ignored to accept the "Belin/Ball solution".

Wouldn't it be easier to have BRW saying he was never on the 6th floor and was with Jarman and Norman when they went up to the 5th floor? This is what Norman and Jarman have been saying in their various statements to the FBI and SS. It's what BRW said on his affidavit.

Then you have to ignore the physical evidence......chicken lunch. Maybe Rowland simply got the description wrong.....essentials correct though. Why would he pay any more attention to the SN than any other window except for the SW window?
« Last Edit: April 26, 2021, 03:06:38 AM by Colin Crow »

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Re: Et tu, Bonnie?
« Reply #442 on: April 26, 2021, 02:49:53 AM »


Offline Alan Ford

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Re: Et tu, Bonnie?
« Reply #443 on: April 26, 2021, 06:50:34 PM »
Theories based on witness testimony

MR O'MEARA: These witnesses are lying their backsides off!

ALSO MR O'MEARA: Don't stray from what these witnesses testified to!

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and physical evidence.

MR ROWLAND: "Possibly 50 or 60... bald or practically bald... Had on a plaid shirt. I think it was red and green, very bright color, that is why I remember it... not real dark compared to some Negroes, but fairly dark. Seemed like his face was either--I can't recall detail but it was either very wrinkled or marked in some way."

MR O'MEARA: Definitiely Bonnie Ray Williams!

 :D

Offline Colin Crow

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Re: Et tu, Bonnie?
« Reply #444 on: April 27, 2021, 06:56:36 AM »
Just another puzzler for the LN proponents. How did the chicken bones get back in the bag for Studebaker to find them there?

Well?

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Re: Et tu, Bonnie?
« Reply #444 on: April 27, 2021, 06:56:36 AM »


Online Dan O'meara

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Re: Et tu, Bonnie?
« Reply #445 on: April 27, 2021, 08:42:31 PM »
Well?

The only mention I can find anywhere of someone claiming to put the chicken bones back in the bag is from BRW's WC testimony:

Mr. BALL. Where did you put the bones?
Mr. WILLIAMS. I don't remember exactly, but I think I put some of them back in the sack. Just as I was ready to go I threw the sack down.
Mr. BALL. What did you do with the sack?
Mr. WILLIAMS. I think I just dropped it there.
Mr. BALL. Anywhere near the two-wheeler?
Mr. WILLIAMS. I think it was.
Mr. BALL. What did you do with the Dr. Pepper bottle?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Just set it down on the floor.

According to Williams the bones were put back in the bag and dumped by the two-wheeler truck. He also laid the Dr Pepper bottle on the floor by the truck. This is exactly what we see in the crime scene photos taken by Day and Studebaker. So we have eye-witness testimony by the person who had the lunch confirmed by photos of the crime scene before anything was moved.

All neat and tidy  ::)

Offline Alan Ford

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Re: Et tu, Bonnie?
« Reply #446 on: April 27, 2021, 08:44:02 PM »
Some questions one might ponder in all this................................

1. Did whoever fired from the sixth floor trust to luck that no manual employees would choose that floor as the place from which to view the P. Parade?

1a. Why did so many employees stay clear of the sixth floor?

2. If Mr Jack Dougherty and/or Mr Bonnie Ray Williams were knowingly involved in the assassination plot, why did neither of these two men say a thing to incriminate Mr Oswald?

3. Who is the bright plaid shirt-wearing 'elderly negro' at the SN window @12:15pm described by Mr Arnold Rowland?

4. Why did Mr Tom Alyea emphatically state that the chicken bones were found on the fifth rather than the sixth floor------and that they looked like they were a few days old?

5. Why did Mr Bonnie Ray Williams hide the fact that he bought his lunch that day from the catering truck?

6. Why did Mr Roy Truly, in his WC testimony, single out Mr Williams as an especially 'superstitious' fellow who was particularly shook up by the assassination?

7. If Mr Williams finally came clean about having gone up to six and eaten his lunch there, then why did Messrs Norman and Jarman fail subsequently to offer clear, coherent and consistent support for this story?

8. How exactly does one go about eating a chicken-on-the-bone sandwich?

9. Was any bread/crust found in the vicinity of the chicken bones?

 Thumb1:

Offline Colin Crow

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Re: Et tu, Bonnie?
« Reply #447 on: April 28, 2021, 03:46:52 AM »
The only mention I can find anywhere of someone claiming to put the chicken bones back in the bag is from BRW's WC testimony:

Mr. BALL. Where did you put the bones?
Mr. WILLIAMS. I don't remember exactly, but I think I put some of them back in the sack. Just as I was ready to go I threw the sack down.
Mr. BALL. What did you do with the sack?
Mr. WILLIAMS. I think I just dropped it there.
Mr. BALL. Anywhere near the two-wheeler?
Mr. WILLIAMS. I think it was.
Mr. BALL. What did you do with the Dr. Pepper bottle?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Just set it down on the floor.

According to Williams the bones were put back in the bag and dumped by the two-wheeler truck. He also laid the Dr Pepper bottle on the floor by the truck. This is exactly what we see in the crime scene photos taken by Day and Studebaker. So we have eye-witness testimony by the person who had the lunch confirmed by photos of the crime scene before anything was moved.

All neat and tidy  ::)

Gerry Hill.

Mr. HILL. We hadn't been there but a minute until someone yelled, "Here it is," or words to that effect.
I moved over and found they had found an area where the boxes had been stacked in sort of a triangle shape with three sides over near the window.
Mr. BELIN. What did you see over there?
Mr. HILL. There was the boxes. The boxes were stacked in sort of a three-sided shield.
That would have concealed from general view, unless somebody specifically walked up and looked over them, anyone who was in a sitting or crouched position between them and the window. In front of this window and to the left or east corner of the window, there were two boxes, cardboard boxes that had the words "Roller books," on them.
On top of the larger stack of boxes that would have been used for concealment, there was a chicken leg bone and a paper sack which appeared to have been about the size normally used for a lunch sack. I wouldn't know what the sizes were. It was a sack, I would say extended, it would probably be 12 inches high, 10 inches long, and about 4 inches thick.

At this point, I asked the deputy sheriff to guard the scene, not to let anybody touch anything, and I went over still further west to another window about the middle of the building on the south side and yelled down to the street for them to send us the crime lab.

Not knowing or not getting any indication from the street that they heard me, I asked the deputies again to guard the scene and I would go down and make sure that the crime lab was en route.
When I got toward the back, at this time I heard the freight elevator moving, and I went back to the back of the building to either catch the freight elevator or the stairs, and Captain Fritz and his men were coming up on the elevator.
I told him what we found and pointed out the general area, pointed out the deputies to them, and told him also that I was going to make sure the crime lab was en route.
About the time I got to the street, Lieutenant Day from the crime lab was arriving and walking up toward the front door. I told him that the area we had found where the shots were fired from was on the sixth floor on the southeast corner, and that they were guarding the scene so nobody would touch anything until he got there. And he said, "All right."

JIM EWELL, NEWS REPORTER from "No More Silence".
I had been a newspaper reporter for about fifteen years, and I thought that I was a seasoned professional. But now that the weight of this was coming down on me, I was beginning to get woozy. I felt light headed. But I do remember standing there with the police not knowing if they still had somebody trapped upstairs, or if there was going to be an outbreak of gunfire if they exposed somebody. And again, we didn't know how badly hurt Kennedy was, at least I didn't. Meanwhile Jerry Hill worked his way up to the sixth floor, leaned out an open window, and he had what was thought to be Oswald's little fried chicken lunch. It in a little pop box. Jerry was holding that box and holding up one of the chicken bones exclaiming to everybody that listened to him down on the street that the fried chicken what he had been eating. About that time there was a commotion around one of the squad cars, and we could hear a radio saying that an officer
had been shot in Oak Cliff.

Carl Day eventually admitted in his WC testimony that he did not find out about the ownership of the lunch until more than 2 days later.

Mr. McCLOY. On the crime scene, that is, on the sixth floor, did you notice any chicken bones or chicken remnants of a chicken sandwich or lunch or the whereabouts, if you did see them?
Mr. DAY. Yes, sir; there was a sack of some chicken bones and a bottle brought into the identification bureau. I think I still have that sack and bottle down there. The chicken bones, I finally threw them away that laid around there. In my talking to the men who were working on that floor, November 25, they stated, one of them stated, he had eaten lunch over there. Mr. McCLOY. Someone other than Oswald?
Mr. DAY. Yes, sir; so I discarded it, or disconnected it with being with Oswald. Incidentally, Oswald's fingerprints were not on the bottle. I checked that.

Day never saw the lunch remnants in the TSBD on the 22nd. By the time he returned to the TSBD they were removed by Johnson. No doubt by that time the lunch was nothing more than a curiosity.Oswald was dead and Williams occupation in the SN was confused by the placement of the lunch remnants in the bag and set down outside the boxes, likely by Hill and or Johnson.

The management of the crime scene was shambolic.
« Last Edit: April 28, 2021, 07:24:57 AM by Colin Crow »

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Re: Et tu, Bonnie?
« Reply #447 on: April 28, 2021, 03:46:52 AM »