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Author Topic: DPD Tapes and a 6 Minute Discrepancy  (Read 31319 times)

Offline Dan DAlimonte

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Re: DPD Tapes and a 6 Minute Discrepancy
« Reply #24 on: May 20, 2021, 02:34:13 AM »
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Hi Dan D'Alimonte -

OK, I recall the Secret Service transcript, made by SA Warner. Unfortunately, it is probably the worst, and most inaccurate, transcript that was produced. In fairness to the Secret Service, the transcript was made in Washington, and almost certainly by people who were totally unfamiliar with the geography of Dallas, and the terminology of the DPD. Also, we know that the first thing Agent Warner did was to copy the original dictabelts, after which he sent the copies (on an unknown medium) to Washington for transcription. Also, the transcript was produced in something of a hurry, so unfortunately the end result was what can only be described as chaotic, and very misleading.

Chris

Hey Chris thanks for responding but since I created this Dan 1 and Dan 2 situation I will be bumping my own thread
(hopefully tomprrow) and i'll respond there.  I do appreciate your input.  Thanks again.
« Last Edit: May 20, 2021, 08:09:46 PM by Dan DAlimonte »

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Re: DPD Tapes and a 6 Minute Discrepancy
« Reply #24 on: May 20, 2021, 02:34:13 AM »


Online Charles Collins

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Re: DPD Tapes and a 6 Minute Discrepancy
« Reply #25 on: May 20, 2021, 07:24:05 PM »
In another thread concerning the shooting of J D Tippit I’ve had to deal with a 6 minute discrepancy between “real time“ and the time being called out on the tapes. It wasn’t something I readily accepted and have examined the tapes for such a discrepancy.
I start with this quote by James C. Bowles, the DPD Communications Supervisor at the time:

“There is no way to connect "police time" with "real time."

This may be true on a second-to-second basis but it is most certainly not true on a minute-to-minute basis, as I will demonstrate.



The above picture is taken seconds after the assassination. The hertz clock can be clearly seen showing 12:30.
In his WC testimony, SA Greer states that in the immediate aftermath of the shooting SA Kellerman stated the time as 12:30
In his WC testimony Dave Powers confirms it was 12:30

Here we have three (I’m sure there are more) independent sources confirming the time of the assassination was 12:30 PM. Arguments about coincidence can be filed under “Tinfoil”.
Three independent sources agree that “real time” was 12:30 PM

When we look at the DPD tape transcripts we see that the very first call after the 12:30 time call is Chief Curry stating:

“Go to the hospital - Parkland Hospital. Have them stand by.”

This is clearly a reference to the assassination.
Without doubt, this example confirms that “real time” can, indeed, be connected to “police time”. Channel 1 and Channel 2 cannot hear each other and are only connected by the Dispatcher. Once it has been established that “real time” and “police time” are in synch, it must now be established that Channel 1 and Channel 2 are in synch and this can only really be done by examining how the Dispatcher interacts with each channel.

This happens around 12:35 when Captain Souther orders - “have 283 cut the traffic at Hines and Industrial” on Channel 2. He immediately switches to Channel 1 and gives the same order.
Another clear example of such synchronisation between channels occurs at 12:45 PM. The Dispatcher broadcasts an almost identical message on each channel concerning a description of the potential assailant.
At this point (12:45 PM) I believe that the channels are synched with each other and with “real time” yet, within half an hour, there is supposed to be a 6 minute discrepancy. I didn’t believe such a discrepancy could occur gradually so looked for something more “catastrophic” in the transcripts...and found it.

At 12:54 PM Patrolman Chism asks for “a squad go to Community Blood Bank and pick up some blood and bring to Parkland, Code 3”. This is clearly a priority message. The Dispatcher asks if the Blood Bank has been notified and Chism confirms they have.
When we look to Channel 1 we should see the Dispatcher asking a squad to get to the Blood Bank, “Code 3” [sirens and lights]. Instead we see the Dispatcher having a joke with J D Tippit, asking him if he will be available for any emergency to which Tippit dryly answers “10-4”. It is Tippit’s last known message and it is quite well known this interaction is an in-joke between Tippit and Murray, the Dispatcher.
In fact, the request for a squad doesn’t occur for approximately 5 - 8 minutes:

Dispatcher - Code 3, the blood bank, 2000 Commerce. Take to Parkland

This message occurs in between the time calls 12:55 PM and 1:03 PM. It occurs a lot closer to the 1:03 time call and the gap of 5 - 8 minutes is given as an estimate.

Immediately after the “Blood Bank” message on Channel 2, Captain Souther, a senior officer, asks for the condition of JFK and whether Governor Connally has been hit. Again, this message is just after 12:54 PM. The response from the Dispatcher - “Have information that the governor was hit” - doesn’t come until 1:03 PM.
There is a nine minute section of radio silence on Channel 2 between this question and answer. There is something clearly wrong. So I looked for something that might account for this sudden, large discrepancy and noticed that on Channel 1, a few minutes before the Dispatcher calls for a squad to get to the Blood Bank, it states the “Tape spliced and duplicated at this point".
There is a similar splice just after 1:12 PM on Channel 1. I believe these splices have something to do with the large time discrepancy that occurs in the tapes. I’m hoping this thread will get to the bottom of it.
 
LATER EDIT =Just noticed another splice at 1:32


Jack Watson, the Dallas County Sheriff’s Office radio dispatcher, in his report to Sheriff Decker dated 11/22/63, states that immediately after he heard the shots:

“I looked at the time on the radio panel and it was about 40-seconds after 12:30 pm as I was calling the Dallas PD on the hot line...”


https://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh19/pdf/WH19_Decker_Ex_5323.pdf


Also, earlier In the Sheriff’s documentation he provides the following description:

There had been no incidents during the entire route of the motorcade and we arrived at Elm Street at approximately 12 :31 PM . Mr . Lawson had just looked at his watch, stating it *as 12:31 PM and remarking that we would be approximately 5 minutes late in arriving at Market Hall.


It does appear to me that at the time of the assassination, the real time was reasonably close to the verbal times recorded on the DPD tapes. And I think that your own apparent opinion that, without any apparent reason otherwise, these verbal times should also be reasonably close to the real time 45-minutes later during the Tippit murder time period. Does this not suggest to you that the discrepancies must be in the details of the testimonies that seem to point to a six minute time difference???

Offline Dan O'meara

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Re: DPD Tapes and a 6 Minute Discrepancy
« Reply #26 on: May 20, 2021, 08:09:00 PM »

Jack Watson, the Dallas County Sheriff’s Office radio dispatcher, in his report to Sheriff Decker dated 11/22/63, states that immediately after he heard the shots:

“I looked at the time on the radio panel and it was about 40-seconds after 12:30 pm as I was calling the Dallas PD on the hot line...”


https://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh19/pdf/WH19_Decker_Ex_5323.pdf


Also, earlier In the Sheriff’s documentation he provides the following description:

There had been no incidents during the entire route of the motorcade and we arrived at Elm Street at approximately 12 :31 PM . Mr . Lawson had just looked at his watch, stating it *as 12:31 PM and remarking that we would be approximately 5 minutes late in arriving at Market Hall.


It does appear to me that at the time of the assassination, the real time was reasonably close to the verbal times recorded on the DPD tapes. And I think that your own apparent opinion that, without any apparent reason otherwise, these verbal times should also be reasonably close to the real time 45-minutes later during the Tippit murder time period. Does this not suggest to you that the discrepancies must be in the details of the testimonies that seem to point to a six minute time difference???

There is no way the timeline of the testimonies is worked out to the second but it's really tight as it is. The way the testimonies interlock don't leave much room for manoeuvre and certainly nothing like five or six minutes. The "official" timeline for the Tippit murder just doesn't work (IMO) without ignoring a lot of the key witness testimony.
I'd kind of given up on it as I know next to nothing about this aspect of the case. Then Chris came along and I get the impression this is the guy who could shed some light on this situation.
If he says it's a non-starter as far as the discrepancy is concerned it's back to the drawing board.
But I'm not at the point where I can dismiss any possibility.

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Re: DPD Tapes and a 6 Minute Discrepancy
« Reply #26 on: May 20, 2021, 08:09:00 PM »


Online Charles Collins

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Re: DPD Tapes and a 6 Minute Discrepancy
« Reply #27 on: May 20, 2021, 08:21:02 PM »
There is no way the timeline of the testimonies is worked out to the second but it's really tight as it is. The way the testimonies interlock don't leave much room for manoeuvre and certainly nothing like five or six minutes. The "official" timeline for the Tippit murder just doesn't work (IMO) without ignoring a lot of the key witness testimony.
I'd kind of given up on it as I know next to nothing about this aspect of the case. Then Chris came along and I get the impression this is the guy who could shed some light on this situation.
If he says it's a non-starter as far as the discrepancy is concerned it's back to the drawing board.
But I'm not at the point where I can dismiss any possibility.


The "official" timeline for the Tippit murder just doesn't work (IMO) without ignoring a lot of the key witness testimony.


To me, it isn’t considered ignoring if it is in fact considered, and then decided that it must be in error.

Offline Chris Scally

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Re: DPD Tapes and a 6 Minute Discrepancy
« Reply #28 on: May 20, 2021, 08:27:31 PM »
Dan - I hope to get time over the coming weekend to spend a little more time on this timing issue. I agree that a 5-6 minute difference is worthy of further consideration, so hopefully I'll get a chance to listen to the tapes and compare them with the transcripts over the weekend.
 

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Re: DPD Tapes and a 6 Minute Discrepancy
« Reply #28 on: May 20, 2021, 08:27:31 PM »


Offline Dan O'meara

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Re: DPD Tapes and a 6 Minute Discrepancy
« Reply #29 on: May 20, 2021, 08:35:32 PM »

The "official" timeline for the Tippit murder just doesn't work (IMO) without ignoring a lot of the key witness testimony.


To me, it isn’t considered ignoring if it is in fact considered, and then decided that it must be in error.

Agreed.
"Ignoring" was the incorrect word to use.
The situation, I suppose, is that on one hand there could be a single error (the DPD tapes) and on the other there could be a number of erroneous important details regarding the timing of events as related by various witnesses.

Offline Dan O'meara

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Re: DPD Tapes and a 6 Minute Discrepancy
« Reply #30 on: May 20, 2021, 08:37:46 PM »
Dan - I hope to get time over the coming weekend to spend a little more time on this timing issue. I agree that a 5-6 minute difference is worthy of further consideration, so hopefully I'll get a chance to listen to the tapes and compare them with the transcripts over the weekend.

No worries Chris. This problem isn't going anywhere anytime soon.
Have a good weekend

Offline Martin Weidmann

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Re: DPD Tapes and a 6 Minute Discrepancy
« Reply #31 on: May 20, 2021, 09:33:24 PM »

Jack Watson, the Dallas County Sheriff’s Office radio dispatcher, in his report to Sheriff Decker dated 11/22/63, states that immediately after he heard the shots:

“I looked at the time on the radio panel and it was about 40-seconds after 12:30 pm as I was calling the Dallas PD on the hot line...”


https://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh19/pdf/WH19_Decker_Ex_5323.pdf


Also, earlier In the Sheriff’s documentation he provides the following description:

There had been no incidents during the entire route of the motorcade and we arrived at Elm Street at approximately 12 :31 PM . Mr . Lawson had just looked at his watch, stating it *as 12:31 PM and remarking that we would be approximately 5 minutes late in arriving at Market Hall.


It does appear to me that at the time of the assassination, the real time was reasonably close to the verbal times recorded on the DPD tapes. And I think that your own apparent opinion that, without any apparent reason otherwise, these verbal times should also be reasonably close to the real time 45-minutes later during the Tippit murder time period. Does this not suggest to you that the discrepancies must be in the details of the testimonies that seem to point to a six minute time difference???

Why don't you give it a try and point out where these descrepancies could be in the time line?

Here it is;
Markham leaves her home at "a little after 1" and is en route to the bus stop on Jefferson by 1:06 or 1:07
She only needs to walk one block to get from 9th street to 10th street. The FBI determined that the distance of one block takes about 2,5 minutes to walk. This gets Markham to the corner of 10th and Patton by 1:09:30 at the latest, perfectly on time to reach the bus stop on Jefferson at 1:11 or 1:12.

1:09            Shooting

                   Bowley picked up his daugther at school at 12:55 and is en route to pick up his wife from work. The distance between the school and 10th street takes about 13 to 15 minutes to
                   drive. This gets him to 10th street at 1:10

                   Benavides stays in his car until the killer has disappeared on Patton. That takes about 45 seconds. He then runs to Tippit and then the car and grabs the mic

1:10            Benevides making his call and Bowley arrives

                   Bowley says (in the video "Hunting Oswald") that when he arrived he noticed something was going on, so he parked his car at a fair distance away so his 12 year old daughter would
                   not see it. He then walked towards the police car, checked on Tippit and then noticed Benavides who could not get the radio of the patrol car to work. It's a fair estimation that this
                   would have taken him around 45 seconds. During this time Benavides is keying the mic in vain. When Bowley arrived he looked at his watch and it said 1:10

1:11            Bowley makes his call, lasting 46 seconds

                   DPD officers Poe and Jez (squad car 105) wrote in their supplementary offense report that at approximently 1:10 they heard on the radio that a police officer was involved in a
                   shooting at East Tenth Street.

1:12            Callaway arrives at the scene. He has only one block to run after his interaction with the killer. The killer running towards Jefferson and Callaway then running to 10th street takes
                   about 3 minutes after the shots were fired

1:12:30       After checking on Tippit, Callaway makes his call and hears the ambulance's sirens in the background

                   Ambulance arrives. Callaway and Bowley help loading Tippit's body into the ambulance

1:12:45       DPD officer Croy is in his car at Zang and Colorado when he hears Bowley's radio call. It takes him no more than
                  1,5 to 2 minutes to arrive at 10th street. When he arrives he sees Tippit's body being loaded into the ambulance

1:13            The ambulance leaves. The distance to Methodist Hospital takes 2 minutes to drive in normal traffic. With sirens on
                   it takes less.

                   DPD officers Davenport and Bardin are in their car and see the ambulance pass by. They follow it and arrive at the
                   same time at as the ambulance at the hospital.

1:15            Ambulance arrives at Methodist Hospital and Tippit is declared DOA at 1:15
                   The DOA time is communicated to the Justice of the Peace who issues an Authorization for Autopsy which gives the
                   time of death as 1:15.
                   Davenport writes in his report that Tippit was declared dead at 1:15 and on the form he uses to deliver a bullet
                   taken from Tippit's body and a button from his uniform to the Identification Bureau he writes in his own handwriting that Tippit was declared
                   DOA at 1:15

For the DPD times to be correct, Markham needs to be wrong about the time she left home and she also does not get to the bus stop at 1:15, Bowley's watch must be off by 7 minutes which means he was 7 minutes late to pick up his daughter from school and did not notice it. DPD officers Poe and Jez have to be wrong about the time they heard the radio call. The clocks at Methodist Hospital must be wrong, or at least the one used by Dr. Liquori and Davenport and Bardin must have been mistaken about Tippit being declared dead at 1:15.
« Last Edit: May 20, 2021, 09:38:18 PM by Martin Weidmann »

JFK Assassination Forum

Re: DPD Tapes and a 6 Minute Discrepancy
« Reply #31 on: May 20, 2021, 09:33:24 PM »