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Author Topic: Should the TSBD be demolished?  (Read 19176 times)

Offline Steve M. Galbraith

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Re: Should the TSBD be demolished?
« Reply #80 on: June 22, 2021, 11:29:20 PM »
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Here's Robert Caro on LBJ/JFK and the civil rights bill.

"At the time President Kennedy is killed, that Civil Rights Bill is going nowhere. The Senate was always the great barrier to civil rights with its use of the filibuster. But the bill’s not even in the Senate. It’s not even on the House floor. The House Judiciary Committee has passed it, but they sent it to the Rules Committee, which is presided over by Judge Howard W. Smith of Virginia, the archest of segregationists. He won’t even tell anybody when he will start a hearing. At approximately the same time as the Kennedy motorcade is going through Dallas, John McCormick, the Speaker of the House, is asking Judge Smith, “What’s the schedule? When are you going to start hearings?” Smith is saying, “I don’t know.”

The Washington Post interviews Smith and asks, “What are your plans for the Civil Rights Bill?” He says, “No plans.” That bill is not getting out of the Rules Committee; it’s completely stuck."

Then this: "Three nights after Kennedy’s assassination, Johnson’s going to give his first speech to the joint houses of Congress. Johnson’s not even in the Oval Office yet; he’s still living at home. In the dining room, around his kitchen table, his advisors are drafting the speech. Johnson comes in, and they tell him, “Don’t emphasize civil rights. Don’t make that a priority. You’re going to alienate the Southern Democrats. It’s a lost cause, anyway. It’s a noble cause, but it’s a lost cause. Don’t waste your prestige immediately on it.” And Johnson says, “What the hell’s the presidency for, then?” He makes civil rights a centerpiece of his speech. He puts it in the context of Kennedy’s memory. “This is what he fought for. This is what he wanted.” Sympathy for Kennedy is not the whole story, but it’s a big part of the story of why that Civil Rights Bill gets passed."

So, the claim that LBJ was behind the assassination is made even more illogical by this act by LBJ, by this address to the nation. He is risking, seriously risking, his presidency and any chance of election with this speech and its call for passage of the civil rights bill. It risks alienating the South, a key Democrat voting block, and the chances of election (the Republican nominee was still to be determined). It makes no sense on any level that he would be the mover behind the assassination in order to attain the presidency AND then risk all of that with these actions shortly afterwards.

Finally, here is Caro on JFK:  "In those respects [the missile crisis, foreign affairs], Kennedy was among our greatest presidents. You also have to say that in domestic affairs, Kennedy was not effective. His legislative program and the ideals he articulated for Medicare, for tax reform, for civil rights weren’t going anywhere. Would they ever have gone anywhere? If he had a second term, would they have gotten passed? Perhaps, but there’s no sign of that. Both of his two big bills, the tax cut bill and the Civil Rights Bill, were absolutely stalled in Congress."

Full piece here: https://newrepublic.com/article/115477/robert-caro-lbj-jfk-assasination-and-me



« Last Edit: June 23, 2021, 02:19:11 AM by Steve M. Galbraith »

JFK Assassination Forum

Re: Should the TSBD be demolished?
« Reply #80 on: June 22, 2021, 11:29:20 PM »


Offline Rick Plant

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Re: Should the TSBD be demolished?
« Reply #81 on: June 23, 2021, 01:17:12 AM »
Again, after I praised LBJ for his efforts with Civil Rights you bizarrely responded that I viciously attack "every Democratic President."  I assume that even you realize that LBJ was a "Democratic President."  Thus, a falsehood.  Just one of many.  Anyone can read your endless, hate-filled threads on Trump that contain all manner of debunked conspiracy theories and judge for themselves whether you are several fries short of a happy meal.

 :D :D :D

Richard stepped up to the plate and watched 3 strikes go by not even taking his bat off his shoulder. Didn't even take a swing....pathetic.

Richard has made false accusations against me claiming that I "defended Oswald" and "posted outlandish and false copy and paste conspiracy theories", which I never did.

I asked Richard 3 times now to point to where I "defended Oswald and posted outlandish and false copy and paste conspiracy theories" and he completely ignored it 3 times now continuing on with his same ridiculous accusations as well as his usual gaslighting tactics.

Like I said before, everything I posted was 100% factual and accurate. Richard can't point to one thing inaccurate that I posted and he knows it. That's why he never even attempted to post anything. He is just wants to argue his same ridiculous nonsense.   

Offline Jerry Organ

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Re: Should the TSBD be demolished?
« Reply #82 on: June 23, 2021, 01:19:48 AM »
Howard Smith of the Rules Committee said he would hold up the Civil Rights Bill. But Johnson didn't persuade him to release the bill. Emanuel Celler, chairman of the House Judiciary Committee and the bill's floor manager, filed a petition to discharge the bill from the Rules Committee. When Congress reconvened in January, Smith was facing not only Celler's petition but an in-committee revolt (Democrats and moderate Republicans on the Committee who could have voted for his removal) if he didn't release the Bill.

Though not all, most of Congress, the media, clergy and the general public were behind what was a moral issue. There was also the incentive among politicians outside the South to have the bill passed before the election.

JFK Assassination Forum

Re: Should the TSBD be demolished?
« Reply #82 on: June 23, 2021, 01:19:48 AM »


Offline Steve M. Galbraith

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Re: Should the TSBD be demolished?
« Reply #83 on: June 23, 2021, 04:44:33 PM »
Howard Smith of the Rules Committee said he would hold up the Civil Rights Bill. But Johnson didn't persuade him to release the bill. Emanuel Celler, chairman of the House Judiciary Committee and the bill's floor manager, filed a petition to discharge the bill from the Rules Committee. When Congress reconvened in January, Smith was facing not only Celler's petition but an in-committee revolt (Democrats and moderate Republicans on the Committee who could have voted for his removal) if he didn't release the Bill.

Though not all, most of Congress, the media, clergy and the general public were behind what was a moral issue. There was also the incentive among politicians outside the South to have the bill passed before the election.
Well, now it's no longer JFK getting credit it's Celler?

Question: Why didn't Celler, who was chairman of the Judiciary Committee in the 1950s, do this while JFK was president? As Caro pointed out, Smith was keeping the bill from going to the floor. Celler could have gone around him then. But he didn't. Why not?

Answer: Nobody, i.e., JFK, was pushing him for it. Celler - and Humphrey who guided it through the Senate (this is where the bills were usually killed) - were in constant contact with LBJ, who was pushing, pushing, pushing for them to get the bill through. Humphrey and LBJ became so close that LBJ selected him as his Vice Presidential candidate for the '64 election.

The death of JFK was, as Caro pointed out, a major catalyst behind the passage. And it was LBJ using that death to shame, embarrass, prod, push Congress for its passage. And after the bill was passed LBJ pushed for passage of the Voting Rights Act, the Fair Housing Act and other assorted legislation and poverty programs to fight racial injustice. It wasn't just the Civil Rights Bill that he promoted. It was a long series of acts.

This unwillingness to give any credit to LBJ for this is remarkable.
« Last Edit: June 23, 2021, 05:16:47 PM by Steve M. Galbraith »

Offline Steve M. Galbraith

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Re: Should the TSBD be demolished?
« Reply #84 on: June 23, 2021, 06:11:01 PM »
This is from the Caro account in "Passage to Power". LBJ provided "levers", i.e., votes, to Celler to get around Smith. When one failed, he would get another one. A more complete account is here:

https://www.google.com/books/edition/The_Passage_of_Power/rQO5g9pQjDIC?hl=en&gbpv=1&bsq=Celler


« Last Edit: June 23, 2021, 07:39:36 PM by Steve M. Galbraith »

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Re: Should the TSBD be demolished?
« Reply #84 on: June 23, 2021, 06:11:01 PM »


Offline Jerry Organ

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Re: Should the TSBD be demolished?
« Reply #85 on: June 23, 2021, 06:40:19 PM »
Well, now it's no longer JFK getting credit it's Celler?

What? I said many people from both parties worked on the Bill before and after the assassination.

Quote
Question: Why didn't Celler, who was chairman of the Judiciary Committee in the 1950s, do this while JFK was president? As Caro pointed out, Smith was keeping the bill from going to the floor. Celler could have gone around him then. But he didn't. Why not?

Answer: Nobody, i.e., JFK, was pushing him for it. Celler - and Humphrey who guided it through the Senate (this is where the bills were usually killed) - were in constant contact with LBJ, who was pushing, pushing, pushing for them to get the bill through.

Many others, from grassroots Americans on up to Senators were pushing as well. The "myth" became that Johnson alone got it done.

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Humphrey and LBJ became so close that LBJ selected him as his Vice Presidential candidate for the '64 election.

You make it sound like Johnson noticed Humphrey in early 1964. Humphrey and Johnson became acquainted during LBJ's years in the Senate. Humphrey threw his support to Johnson during the 1960 campaign. Humphrey and Johnson were on the same page as to Civil Rights as far back as 1948, when Humphrey told the DNC that Democrats must:

    "get out of the shadow of states’ rights and to walk
     forthrightly into the bright sunshine of human rights."

There were three choices for the Vice-President slot: Humphrey, Eugene McCarthy and Thomas J. Dodd. Dodd was running for re-election as Senator in Connecticut (a state that would not not bring much regional balance to the ticket) but he was up against the Lodge family name. Johnson inviting him to his suite at the DNC was to raise Dodd's stature to the folks back home. I don't see McCarthy having much of a chance.

Quote
The death of JFK was, as Caro pointed out, a major catalyst behind the passage. And it was LBJ using that death to shame, embarrass, prod, push Congress for its passage. And after the bill was passed LBJ pushed for passage of the Voting Rights Act, the Fair Housing Act and other assorted legislation and poverty programs to fight racial injustice. It wasn't just the Civil Rights Bill that he promoted. It was a long series of acts.

Richard and you want the narrative that a Strongman (like Donald Trump  ::) ) is necessary to get something done in the "do nothing" Congress.

What really happened was that Civil Rights was a moral issue. It wasn't all harmonious, but the House and the Senate worked together.

Quote
This unwillingness to give any credit to LBJ for this is remarkable.

There you go with the drama again.




Offline John Iacoletti

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Re: Should the TSBD be demolished?
« Reply #86 on: June 23, 2021, 07:21:15 PM »
Yeah. I'm willing to put my home town and region in my profile, so it appears beneath my name in posts. How about you? And some of the other Republican apologists?

 :D He's not even brave enough to use his real name.

Offline John Iacoletti

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Re: Should the TSBD be demolished?
« Reply #87 on: June 23, 2021, 07:26:17 PM »
And Johnson says, “What the hell’s the presidency for, then?” He makes civil rights a centerpiece of his speech. He puts it in the context of Kennedy’s memory. “This is what he fought for. This is what he wanted.” Sympathy for Kennedy is not the whole story, but it’s a big part of the story of why that Civil Rights Bill gets passed."

  Johnson, like other presidents, would often reveal his true motivations in asides that the press never picked up.
  During one trip, Johnson was discussing his proposed civil rights bill with two governors. Explaining why it was so
  important to him, he said it was simple: “I’ll have them niggers voting Democratic for two hundred years.”

  “That was the reason he was pushing the bill,” said MacMillan, who was present during the conversation. “Not
  because he wanted equality for everyone. It was strictly a political ploy for the Democratic party. He was phony
  from the word go.”

- Ronald Kessler, "Inside the White House: The Hidden Lives of the Modern Presidents and the Secrets of the World’s Most Powerful Institution", 1995

JFK Assassination Forum

Re: Should the TSBD be demolished?
« Reply #87 on: June 23, 2021, 07:26:17 PM »