How the heck do you remove a Limo stop?

[John Mytton]

I was reading through some ED Forum posts when I came across a David Lipton post where he claims that the Zapruder film was altered and this new edited film was shown to the Connally's on the following Monday? Despite the utter absurdity of altering the Zapruder film in a few days. Lipton claims that they removed the Limo stop, now let's just examine how they could do this.

First of all I have seen numerous posts over the years where CT's claim it's as easy as simply removing frames but have they thought this through? Any moving vehicle has to slow to a stop then has to speed up to move away. The Zapruder Film shows the Limo in continuous motion so at some point the edit has to match up two points where the Limo is moving, at before and after corresponding speeds which means that the angle of the Limo from Zapruder's position will have changed dramatically which automatically rules out this option.

Secondly the occupants of the Limo always show harmonious smooth motion from to frame and any stop has to carefully match everyone's position before and after and again from a totally different perspective, which is another impossibility.

Thirdly, we have the problem that the people outside of the Limo are also moving in synchronicity, so how do you separate these two vastly different individual elements?

Chris Bristow must also realize these problems because he started a thread addressing these issues and has actually tried to think it through and from what I can make out he concludes that perhaps the lower half below the top edge of the road was somehow spliced together with what was above the splice, very creative but we still have the perspective problem generated by the moving Limo, the moving occupants and how on Earth can you splice together the top edge of the road from two different viewing angles?

At the end of the day by claiming that an Optical printer can magically join this film is incredibly naïve, there is a reason that Optical Printers are not widely used anymore mainly because this method looks hideous and requires multiple passes which by definition introduces additional layers of rephotographed film grain and we know beyond all doubt that Zavada's examination of the original Zapruder film shows the same film grain as an original standard 8mm film.





David Healey who apparently has worked in the industry provided only a single frame where he photoshopped the Limo(which incidentally is way more realistic that using a sharp knife) and reinserted it back into the original and it just looks like crap and that's just from 1 frame and it's no coincidence that the frame that he chose has no objects or people above the Limo, LOL.
I'd like to see him utilize more consecutive frames and let's see how a moving film works out? Obviously he won't because he realizes how silly that would look.





JohnM

[Richard Smith]

Lifton's body alteration nonsense is the stuff of ancient aliens and Bigfoot.  Way, way out there tin foil hat nonsense.  Never understood how he was taken seriously.   

[Joe Elliott]

I was reading through some ED Forum posts when I came across a David Lipton post where he claims that the Zapruder film was altered and this new edited film was shown to the Connally's on the following Monday? Despite the utter absurdity of altering the Zapruder film in a few days. Lipton claims that they removed the Limo stop, now let's just examine how they could do this.

First of all I have seen numerous posts over the years where CT's claim it's as easy as simply removing frames but have they thought this through? Any moving vehicle has to slow to a stop then has to speed up to move away. The Zapruder Film shows the Limo in continuous motion so at some point the edit has to match up two points where the Limo is moving, at before and after corresponding speeds which means that the angle of the Limo from Zapruder's position will have changed dramatically which automatically rules out this option.

. . .

JohnM

Exactly right.

If:

•   The limousine was moving at 8 mph, then abruptly stopped, in one Zapruder frame, causing all the occupants of the limousine to be sent flying forward at 8 mph.

•   All the occupants of the limousine, despite this great deceleration, did not change their positions within the limousine.


•   All the spectators also froze the positions, stopped clapping, stopped walking, stopped moving.


•   And, just as abruptly instantly accelerated to 8 mph within one Zapruder frame two to three seconds later.

Then, yes, removing all the frames while the limousine was stopped could create a film where the limousine never slowed and never came to a stop.

But in reality, under Newtonian physics, this could never happen.

The limousine could only slow down with about one half of a G, I believe, taking at least 6 seconds to slow from 66 mph to 0 mph. Slowing from 8 mph to zero in one eighteenth of a second requires a G force of around 6 G’s. And 6 G’s of acceleration when the limousine started moving forward again.

Because of Newtonian physics, you can’t simply take a film of a vehicle slowing to a stop, then speeding up again, by removing some frames. One would have to create new frames from scratch to make this happen. Around z305 through z345, the limousine moves at a pretty steady 8 mph, or 8 inches per frame. If it slowed to a stop, appearing to:
•   moved 8 inches between z305 and z306
•   moved 7 inches, between z306 and z307
•   moved 6 inches between z307 and z308
•   moved 5 inches between z308 and z309
•   etc., until it was stopped by frame z313
removing one frame, like that at z307, will be seen because between what was z306 and z308, the limousine would suddenly appear to take an impossible leap of speed, going 13 inches, meaning a speed of 13 mph. It would be impossible for the limousine to accelerate that much.

No sudden microbursts of such speed, a sudden doubling of the speed of the limousine, is visible anywhere in the Zapruder film. That is because such acceleration is impossible.

Saying a stop of the limousine can be hidden by removing Zapruder frames show how little prominent CTers who present such theories have thought things through.

[John Mytton]

Saying a stop of the limousine can be hidden by removing Zapruder frames show how little prominent CTers who present such theories have thought things through.

Thanks Joe, and iirc Lifton was originally an engineer which makes his understanding of physics for this particular problem all the more baffling?

JohnM

[John Iacoletti]

Who's David Lipton?  Does he make tea?

[Bill Chapman]

I was reading through some ED Forum posts when I came across a David Lipton post where he claims that the Zapruder film was altered and this new edited film was shown to the Connally's on the following Monday? Despite the utter absurdity of altering the Zapruder film in a few days. Lipton claims that they removed the Limo stop, now let's just examine how they could do this.

First of all I have seen numerous posts over the years where CT's claim it's as easy as simply removing frames but have they thought this through? Any moving vehicle has to slow to a stop then has to speed up to move away. The Zapruder Film shows the Limo in continuous motion so at some point the edit has to match up two points where the Limo is moving, at before and after corresponding speeds which means that the angle of the Limo from Zapruder's position will have changed dramatically which automatically rules out this option.

Secondly the occupants of the Limo always show harmonious smooth motion from to frame and any stop has to carefully match everyone's position before and after and again from a totally different perspective, which is another impossibility.

Thirdly, we have the problem that the people outside of the Limo are also moving in synchronicity, so how do you separate these two vastly different individual elements?

Chris Bristow must also realize these problems because he started a thread addressing these issues and has actually tried to think it through and from what I can make out he concludes that perhaps the lower half below the top edge of the road was somehow spliced together with what was above the splice, very creative but we still have the perspective problem generated by the moving Limo, the moving occupants and how on Earth can you splice together the top edge of the road from two different viewing angles?

At the end of the day by claiming that an Optical printer can magically join this film is incredibly naïve, there is a reason that Optical Printers are not widely used anymore mainly because this method looks hideous and requires multiple passes which by definition introduces additional layers of rephotographed film grain and we know beyond all doubt that Zavada's examination of the original Zapruder film shows the same film grain as an original standard 8mm film.





David Healey who apparently has worked in the industry provided only a single frame where he photoshopped the Limo(which incidentally is way more realistic that using a sharp knife) and reinserted it back into the original and it just looks like crap and that's just from 1 frame and it's no coincidence that the frame that he chose has no objects or people above the Limo, LOL.
I'd like to see him utilize more consecutive frames and let's see how a moving film works out? Obviously he won't because he realizes how silly that would look.





JohnM

'Sharp knife'

Basically the difference between Photoshop & Illustrator.
People calling the Zap film a 'cartoon' don't know that difference.

[Chris Bristow]

John Mytton said
"Chris Bristow must also realize these problems because he started a thread addressing these issues and has actually tried to think it through and from what I can make out he concludes that perhaps the lower half below the top edge of the road was somehow spliced together with what was above the splice, very creative but we still have the perspective problem generated by the moving Limo, the moving occupants and how on Earth can you splice together the top edge of the road from two different viewing angles?"

I was not proposing the matte theory of putting together the background and the limo. My post drew attention to problems with the already existing matte theory.  The biggest problem is re timing the limo to the background would cause the reflections on the trunk to be mis matched to the background. The trunk shows Brehm and others  and the para styles behind them and some buildings on Huston . It would also create incorrect angles of the limo to Zapruder. Rotating the image of the limo would not fully correct the angle problem because the lines of sight through the limo would not be corrected by rotating the image.
 When it comes to taking frames out to remove the limo stop the biggest problem is the deceleration and re acceleration. If the limo slowed from 10 to 8 mph you could take out 1 out of every 4 frames and the limo would appear to continue at 10 mph.
 But if the limo slowed from 10 mph to 7 mph you are left with an odd number. Taking out 1 out of 4 frames is too little and taking out 1 out of 3 frames is too much.
    Taking out frames does not present any problem regarding the angle of the limo to Zapruder. If you are removing frames it does not change the relationship of the limo to Z in any of the frames you retain. I.E. if you retain frame 312 the location and angle of the limo on Elm remains the same in 312 no matter how many other frames are removed.
 The most obvious problem is that the motion of the people in the scene will jump when frames are removed. If the limo was stopped for 2 seconds you have to take all but one frame of the stop out and people like Foster will suddenly jump 2 seconds forward. I don't think that it an impossible problem to address but it adds more time and effort to the process. Jean Hill was said to be waving at JFK to get his attention for Mary Moorman's photo. But in the Z film she is standing mostly still. It could be argued that a quicker way to alter the film would have been to make Hill standing still rather than try to re animate her waving arms.
 The simplest alteration would be the blacking out of the back of the head. Taking out the limo stop would be harder and a matte process to re time the background would be a big job that would require additional mattes for the trunk and a few reflections on the side of the limo and maybe the hood too. But correcting the lines of sight through the limo would be very hard. You could not use an image of the limo from frame 240 and place the limo at the frame 260 location on Elm without an obvious error.
  Multiple image process shots go back to early movies like the original King Kong. When optical printers came around they were considered very useful.
 I posted on this issue because I am interested in optics, photogrammetry  not because I have a theory to promote or defend.