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Author Topic: Ct's firstly ask yourself, where does my theory go?  (Read 41001 times)

Online Charles Collins

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Re: Ct's firstly ask yourself, where does my theory go?
« Reply #256 on: August 21, 2021, 02:07:06 AM »
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I did an experiment on my previous wooden dowel demonstration posted earlier in this thread. I routed a 3/8” cavity in the bottom of the channel to see how the revised geometry works out regarding the theory of the dust and dirt being trapped in between the barrel and the stock. The revised geometry still works well for the theory, probably better. I will post a photo when I get a chance. I also have another theory regarding the purpose of the routed grooves in the bottom of the barrel channel. The top edges of the routed grooves contact the barrel and I believe that they hold the barrel firmly in position. Much better than the barrel could be held in place if the routed grooves were not there.

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Re: Ct's firstly ask yourself, where does my theory go?
« Reply #256 on: August 21, 2021, 02:07:06 AM »


Online Charles Collins

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Re: Ct's firstly ask yourself, where does my theory go?
« Reply #257 on: August 21, 2021, 02:08:20 AM »
Charles, On page 132 of the WR there is a photo of a disassembled carcano. ( CE 1304) The barrel is floating directly above the stock and it's obvious where the bayonet lug fits into the stock.    I believe this photo will help you far better than I can.

Thanks

Offline Jerry Organ

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Re: Ct's firstly ask yourself, where does my theory go?
« Reply #258 on: August 21, 2021, 02:25:29 AM »
Thanks, the other part of the question is: how much of the ~1” length of that slot does the metal bayonet lug fill up when the barrel is properly positioned onto the stock? In other words, is there much clearance between the rounded end of that slot and the bayonet lug?

I have about a 1/8" gap on my model. The gap between the back end of the bayonet lug and the front end of the slot that receives it. However, the end of my wood slot is flat and needs to be rounded (tomorrow). The back end of the lug isn't round (it has slightly rounded corners) and can't "seal" against the actual rounded opening. You've already figured that one out.



I think I can see a similar gap in the picture above. For scale, my model tells me the dark metal band (it has a two rounded projections --one being the bolt head and other where the bolt attaches on the other side -- and has a gap on the underside through which we see the back-third of the bayonet lug) is about 1" long as shown from this angle.
« Last Edit: August 21, 2021, 02:45:11 AM by Jerry Organ »

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Re: Ct's firstly ask yourself, where does my theory go?
« Reply #258 on: August 21, 2021, 02:25:29 AM »


Offline Walt Cakebread

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Re: Ct's firstly ask yourself, where does my theory go?
« Reply #259 on: August 21, 2021, 03:03:25 AM »
I have about a 1/8" gap on my model. The gap between the back end of the bayonet lug and the front end of the slot that receives it. However, the end of my wood slot is flat and needs to be rounded (tomorrow). The back end of the lug isn't round (it has slightly rounded corners) and can't "seal" against the actual rounded opening. You've already figured that one out.



I think I can see a similar gap in the picture above. For scale, my model tells me the dark metal band (it has a two rounded projections --one being the bolt head and other where the bolt attaches on the other side -- and has a gap on the underside through which we see the back-third of the bayonet lug) is about 1" long as shown from this angle.




Does the bayonet slot on the carcano look exactly like the image in the palm print photo?

« Last Edit: August 21, 2021, 03:06:32 AM by Walt Cakebread »

Online Charles Collins

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Re: Ct's firstly ask yourself, where does my theory go?
« Reply #260 on: August 21, 2021, 03:48:26 AM »
I have about a 1/8" gap on my model. The gap between the back end of the bayonet lug and the front end of the slot that receives it. However, the end of my wood slot is flat and needs to be rounded (tomorrow). The back end of the lug isn't round (it has slightly rounded corners) and can't "seal" against the actual rounded opening. You've already figured that one out.



I think I can see a similar gap in the picture above. For scale, my model tells me the dark metal band (it has a two rounded projections --one being the bolt head and other where the bolt attaches on the other side -- and has a gap on the underside through which we see the back-third of the bayonet lug) is about 1" long as shown from this angle.

Thanks a lot Jerry, I think that I am beginning to see that the theory that I have been pursuing isn’t likely to solve the mystery of the two lines. The details of the construction of the rifle do not seem to be what I imagined. But I have another idea that will be explored tomorrow.

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Re: Ct's firstly ask yourself, where does my theory go?
« Reply #260 on: August 21, 2021, 03:48:26 AM »


Offline Jerry Organ

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Re: Ct's firstly ask yourself, where does my theory go?
« Reply #261 on: August 21, 2021, 03:57:50 AM »
Thanks a lot Jerry, I think that I am beginning to see that the theory that I have been pursuing isn’t likely to solve the mystery of the two lines. The details of the construction of the rifle do not seem to be what I imagined. But I have another idea that will be explored tomorrow.

OK, Charles.

Online Charles Collins

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Re: Ct's firstly ask yourself, where does my theory go?
« Reply #262 on: August 21, 2021, 02:09:37 PM »
I should have accepted Walt's challenge straight up instead of adding my twist in pursuit of my theory, which was based on assumptions that turned out to be false. Another lesson learned the hard way. So here I applied 2" wide shipping tape just as Walt's challenge suggested. This time I scribbled about half-way around the circumference to simulate the meaty part of the palm doing that as demonstrated earlier. Also I applied graphite from the pencil to the edges of the square dowel. I can believe that the machining process for making the actual bayonet lug could leave some roughness on those edges and that dirt and debris could cling to those edges more so than the smoother flat surfaces. It is not difficult to apply the tape such that it follows the contours of the bayonet lug. Here are a couple of photos:






And here is a photo of the tape applied to a sheet of printer paper:




A few comments about this experiment:

It is a crude experiment only done as a proof of concept.

The square wooden dowel was made when Walt stated it needed to be 3/8". I assumed both the width and the height were the same. I made it out of a scrap piece of MDF which was a little thicker than 3/8" (7/16") thinking for the experiment I would rather have it a little oversized than undersized. We later learned that the slot for the bayonet lug is only 5/16" wide. And I would think that the actual lug is slightly under that size. Therefore the square wooden dowel is significantly wider than the actual bayonet lug. And so the lines on the tape are a little further apart than what we see on images of the actual lift.

As can be seen in the photos, I manipulated the tape to stick to the vertical surface of the lug. After looking at the resulting lift, I believe that Day probably didn't do that and left that part of the tape a little loose and unstuck.

The shipping tape that I used is probably a bit different than the tape used back in 1963. But it is relatively thin for today's shipping tape (some of the tape available today is thicker and less pliable).

When I zoom an image of the actual 1963 lift such that the lines are about 5/16" apart, the width of the tape is about 2". And the rough experiment I did this morning indicates to me that the palm print (scribbling), the distance (if corrected as stated above) between the lines, and the width of the tape are reasonably proportional to each other when compared to the same proportions in the image of the actual lift.

Based on the distance between the lines and the palm print as seen in the images of the lift, it appears to me that the bayonet must have been partially in the palm, when the latent print was left on the bottom of the barrel, as depicted in the first of the photos I posted earlier suggesting how the barrel was held.

Based on this experiment, I believe that Day lifted some dirt/debris from the edges of the bayonet lug that form the previously mysterious lines.

Offline Walt Cakebread

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Re: Ct's firstly ask yourself, where does my theory go?
« Reply #263 on: August 21, 2021, 05:05:32 PM »
I should have accepted Walt's challenge straight up instead of adding my twist in pursuit of my theory, which was based on assumptions that turned out to be false. Another lesson learned the hard way. So here I applied 2" wide shipping tape just as Walt's challenge suggested. This time I scribbled about half-way around the circumference to simulate the meaty part of the palm doing that as demonstrated earlier. Also I applied graphite from the pencil to the edges of the square dowel. I can believe that the machining process for making the actual bayonet lug could leave some roughness on those edges and that dirt and debris could cling to those edges more so than the smoother flat surfaces. It is not difficult to apply the tape such that it follows the contours of the bayonet lug. Here are a couple of photos:






And here is a photo of the tape applied to a sheet of printer paper:




A few comments about this experiment:

It is a crude experiment only done as a proof of concept.

The square wooden dowel was made when Walt stated it needed to be 3/8". I assumed both the width and the height were the same. I made it out of a scrap piece of MDF which was a little thicker than 3/8" (7/16") thinking for the experiment I would rather have it a little oversized than undersized. We later learned that the slot for the bayonet lug is only 5/16" wide. And I would think that the actual lug is slightly under that size. Therefore the square wooden dowel is significantly wider than the actual bayonet lug. And so the lines on the tape are a little further apart than what we see on images of the actual lift.

As can be seen in the photos, I manipulated the tape to stick to the vertical surface of the lug. After looking at the resulting lift, I believe that Day probably didn't do that and left that part of the tape a little loose and unstuck.

The shipping tape that I used is probably a bit different than the tape used back in 1963. But it is relatively thin for today's shipping tape (some of the tape available today is thicker and less pliable).

When I zoom an image of the actual 1963 lift such that the lines are about 5/16" apart, the width of the tape is about 2". And the rough experiment I did this morning indicates to me that the palm print (scribbling), the distance (if corrected as stated above) between the lines, and the width of the tape are reasonably proportional to each other when compared to the same proportions in the image of the actual lift.

Based on the distance between the lines and the palm print as seen in the images of the lift, it appears to me that the bayonet must have been partially in the palm, when the latent print was left on the bottom of the barrel, as depicted in the first of the photos I posted earlier suggesting how the barrel was held.

Based on this experiment, I believe that Day lifted some dirt/debris from the edges of the bayonet lug that form the previously mysterious lines.

I admire your efforts Charles....  I applaud your efforts....In a way I had hoped that you'd be brutally honest and acknowledge that no matter how you tried, in your experiments, you  could not reduce the distance between the two parallel lines to 3/16 of an inch.   The width of the bayonet lug is precisely .340" ( 8.61mm)  I originally stated that it was 5/16" which is close enough for this discussion....Because 3/16 =.312"     The difference between .312" and .340" =.28 ....or about the  thickness of a plastic credit card.   

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Re: Ct's firstly ask yourself, where does my theory go?
« Reply #263 on: August 21, 2021, 05:05:32 PM »