Does Hiding a Rifle You Plan On Leaving Anyway Really Make Sense?

[Zeon Mason]

Walt, since you mention “stage prop”, what’s your explanation for a brass clip supposedly having been highlighted in frames of Alyea film to “prove” a clip was in the MC rifle, yet in the famous photo of Lt. Day carrying the MC rifle outside of TSBD, the clip that’s pointed out as partly slipping out has become SOLID BLACK!?

[Walt Cakebread]

Walt, since you mention “stage prop”, what’s your explanation for a brass clip supposedly having been highlighted in frames of Alyea film to “prove” a clip was in the MC rifle, yet in the famous photo of Lt. Day carrying the MC rifle outside of TSBD, the clip that’s pointed out as partly slipping out has become SOLID BLACK!?

The brass clip can be seen in the Alyea footage of Detective Day dusting the rifle looking for prints,  in front of the SUNLIT window  That same brass clip can be seen protruding from the magazine as detective Day carries the carcano out of the TSBD.   

FYI....The brass clips work well in the carcano and rarely do they stick in the magazine , because the brass  is heavier and less "sticky" than the steel clips.   I don't know what you're looking at, but the clip in the rifle that Day is carrying is NOT black.

[Jerry Organ]

The brass clip can be seen in the Alyea footage of Detective Day dusting the rifle looking for prints,  in front of the SUNLIT window  That same brass clip can be seen protruding from the magazine as detective Day carries the carcano out of the TSBD.   

FYI....The brass clips work well in the carcano and rarely do they stick in the magazine , because the brass  is heavier and less "sticky" than the steel clips.   I don't know what you're looking at, but the clip in the rifle that Day is carrying is NOT black.

Those guy are lazy when it comes to posting what images they're referring to.

Clip in shade.

Clip not in shade.

[Walt Cakebread]

Those guy are lazy when it comes to posting what images they're referring to.

Clip in shade.

Clip not in shade.

The "Clip not in shade" photo clearly shows the BRASS clip protruding from the magazine.   It was in the rifle when Day picked the rifle up from the floor and it gradually was slipping out of the rifle as Day handled the rifle.   The FACT that the various photos show the clip sliding out of the magazine is solid prof that the clip was NOT jammed or stuck in the rifle.  The rifle was never in the proper orientation ( Magazine toward the floor) to allow the clip to fall out.    This simple FACT tells us that  the rifle was not fired that day.   Because the clip is free to fall out of the rifle when the LAST cartridge is stripped from the clip by the forward motion of the bolt.   Day and Fritz said that Fritz puled the bolt to the rear and a live round dropped out of the rifle....He did NOT push the bolt forward which is necessary to strip the last round from the clip.   This means that the clip was free to fall out at the time Day picked the rifle up from the floor.   The clip was simply "floating" in the magazine in a manner it would have been if a person had placed the clip in the magazine through the ejection port on the bottom of the magazine. 

If the live round had been in the clip and the forward motion of the bolt had stripped the live round from that clip the clip would have dropped out of the magazine through the ejection port.  The fact that the clip was in the magazine is a very strong indication that someone stuck that clip in the port and twisted it so that it wouldn't drop out easily.. 

What's more All of the witnesses who watched as Fritz pulled the bolt BACKWARD said that the live round fell out onto the floor at his feet.   This is a clear indication that the live cartridge had not been tripped from the clip and the cartridge was not married to the face of the bolt.   If that live round had been married to the face of the bolt the live cartridge would have been FLUNG out of the rifle by the ejector, when Fritz retracted the bolt.   This means that the live round was simply placed into the barrel and the bolt closed ( but not latched with the bolt knob down)   

All of the above indicates that the carcano was merely a "throw down" gun and it had not been fired that day. 

[Jerry Organ]

The "Clip not in shade" photo clearly shows the BRASS clip protruding from the magazine.   It was in the rifle when Day picked the rifle up from the floor and it gradually was slipping out of the rifle as Day handled the rifle.   The FACT that the various photos show the clip sliding out of the magazine is solid prof that the clip was NOT jammed or stuck in the rifle.  The rifle was never in the proper orientation ( Magazine toward the floor) to allow the clip to fall out.    This simple FACT tells us that  the rifle was not fired that day.   Because the clip is free to fall out of the rifle when the LAST cartridge is stripped from the clip by the forward motion of the bolt.   Day and Fritz said that Fritz puled the bolt to the rear and a live round dropped out of the rifle....He did NOT push the bolt forward which is necessary to strip the last round from the clip.   This means that the clip was free to fall out at the time Day picked the rifle up from the floor.   The clip was simply "floating" in the magazine in a manner it would have been if a person had placed the clip in the magazine through the ejection port on the bottom of the magazine. 

If the live round had been in the clip and the forward motion of the bolt had stripped the live round from that clip the clip would have dropped out of the magazine through the ejection port.  The fact that the clip was in the magazine is a very strong indication that someone stuck that clip in the port and twisted it so that it wouldn't drop out easily.. 

The clip doesn't always fall out.

What's more All of the witnesses who watched as Fritz pulled the bolt BACKWARD said that the live round fell out onto the floor at his feet.   This is a clear indication that the live cartridge had not been tripped from the clip and the cartridge was not married to the face of the bolt.   If that live round had been married to the face of the bolt the live cartridge would have been FLUNG out of the rifle by the ejector, when Fritz retracted the bolt.   This means that the live round was simply placed into the barrel and the bolt closed ( but not latched with the bolt knob down)   

All of the above indicates that the carcano was merely a "throw down" gun and it had not been fired that day.

What's going on with these Carcanos?  The shells aren't ejecting in an arch?

[Mitch Todd]

The "Clip not in shade" photo clearly shows the BRASS clip protruding from the magazine.   It was in the rifle when Day picked the rifle up from the floor and it gradually was slipping out of the rifle as Day handled the rifle.   The FACT that the various photos show the clip sliding out of the magazine is solid prof that the clip was NOT jammed or stuck in the rifle.  The rifle was never in the proper orientation ( Magazine toward the floor) to allow the clip to fall out.    This simple FACT tells us that  the rifle was not fired that day.   Because the clip is free to fall out of the rifle when the LAST cartridge is stripped from the clip by the forward motion of the bolt.   Day and Fritz said that Fritz puled the bolt to the rear and a live round dropped out of the rifle....He did NOT push the bolt forward which is necessary to strip the last round from the clip.   This means that the clip was free to fall out at the time Day picked the rifle up from the floor.   The clip was simply "floating" in the magazine in a manner it would have been if a person had placed the clip in the magazine through the ejection port on the bottom of the magazine. 

If the live round had been in the clip and the forward motion of the bolt had stripped the live round from that clip the clip would have dropped out of the magazine through the ejection port.  The fact that the clip was in the magazine is a very strong indication that someone stuck that clip in the port and twisted it so that it wouldn't drop out easily.. 

What's more All of the witnesses who watched as Fritz pulled the bolt BACKWARD said that the live round fell out onto the floor at his feet.   This is a clear indication that the live cartridge had not been tripped from the clip and the cartridge was not married to the face of the bolt.   If that live round had been married to the face of the bolt the live cartridge would have been FLUNG out of the rifle by the ejector, when Fritz retracted the bolt.   This means that the live round was simply placed into the barrel and the bolt closed ( but not latched with the bolt knob down)   

All of the above indicates that the carcano was merely a "throw down" gun and it had not been fired that day.

1.)  Grease, dirt and grime adhering to the sides of the magazine well can prevent the clip from falling out properly after the last cartridge is chambered. It's This has been known for quite some whilw. Lattimer brought it to the attention of the JFKA community in Kennedy and Lincoln back in 1980.

2.) In the Carcano, ejection is powered by the cycling of the action. Because of that, the force applied by the ejector against the cartridge rim is directly proportional to the force being used to pull the bolt backwards. If you pull softly, you wont get much ejection out of your ejection.

[Walt Cakebread]

1.)  Grease, dirt and grime adhering to the sides of the magazine well can prevent the clip from falling out properly after the last cartridge is chambered. It's This has been known for quite some whilw. Lattimer brought it to the attention of the JFKA community in Kennedy and Lincoln back in 1980.

2.) In the Carcano, ejection is powered by the cycling of the action. Because of that, the force applied by the ejector against the cartridge rim is directly proportional to the force being used to pull the bolt backwards. If you pull softly, you wont get much ejection out of your ejection.

Grease, dirt and grime adhering to the sides of the magazine well can prevent the clip from falling out properly after the last cartridge is chambered. It's This has been known for quite some whilw. Lattimer brought it to the attention of the JFKA community in Kennedy and Lincoln back in 1980.

But it is a fact that the clip was slowly falling out as detective Day handled the rifle...That means the clip was NOT hung up in the magazine.


2.) In the Carcano, ejection is powered by the cycling of the action. Because of that, the force applied by the ejector against the cartridge rim is directly proportional to the force being used to pull the bolt backwards. If you pull softly, you wont get much ejection out of your ejection.

Yes it's true the spent shell ( or live round) can be prevented from being ejected by refraining from pulling the bolt back all the way or pulling the bolt slowly to the rear.... But that's not what Capt Fritz did....He pulled the bolt back in a rapid motion and the live round merely fell out of the rifle....It was NOT ejected by the ejector.   Which means the cartridge was not married to the face of the bolt....That live round had simply been dropped into the barrel ..... It had not been stripped from the clip.  The elevator lever scratches the last round in the clip but there was no elevator mark on the live round.   The reason....  That Live round was not fed to the bolt by the elevator lever.....

[Jerry Organ]

Grease, dirt and grime adhering to the sides of the magazine well can prevent the clip from falling out properly after the last cartridge is chambered. It's This has been known for quite some whilw. Lattimer brought it to the attention of the JFKA community in Kennedy and Lincoln back in 1980.

But it is a fact that the clip was slowly falling out as detective Day handled the rifle...That means the clip was NOT hung up in the magazine.

"Slowing falling out" is due to what Lattimer and others found, that the clip doesn't fall out properly. You have characterized that as the clip being jammed.

    "Further tests were conducted by loading four cartridges into the CE375
     cartridge clip and inserting it into the magazine of the rifle. The cartridges
     were worked through the rifle's mechanism and ejected without being fired.
     When the last cartridge was chambered, the cartridge clip remained in the
     magazine instead of falling out as it is designed to do."

         — VII HSCA 365

2.) In the Carcano, ejection is powered by the cycling of the action. Because of that, the force applied by the ejector against the cartridge rim is directly proportional to the force being used to pull the bolt backwards. If you pull softly, you wont get much ejection out of your ejection.

Yes it's true the spent shell ( or live round) can be prevented from being ejected by refraining from pulling the bolt back all the way or pulling the bolt slowly to the rear.... But that's not what Capt Fritz did....He pulled the bolt back in a rapid motion and the live round merely fell out of the rifle....I

They were examining a piece of evidence, not at a competition meet. Fritz would pull the bolt back as gently as possible.

It was NOT ejected by the ejector.   Which means the cartridge was not married to the face of the bolt....That live round had simply been dropped into the barrel ..... It had not been stripped from the clip.  The elevator lever scratches the last round in the clip but there was no elevator mark on the live round.   The reason....  That Live round was not fed to the bolt by the elevator lever.....

    "After examining the CE 141 cartridge found in the chamber of the CE 139 
     rifle, the panel concluded that it had in fact been worked through the action
     of that rifle from the magazine."

         — VII HSCA 379

     

     Figure 20.—Photomicrograph showing the correspondence between the
     individual identifying characteristics on the side of the CE 141 cartridge (L)
     and on panel unfired test cartridge No. 4 (R), produced by the magazine
     follower of the CE 139 rifle.