Why are the CT's so obsessed with disproving the innocent Bus and Cab rides?

[Walt Cakebread]

I have no problem with Oswald taking the bus, abandoning it, then getting a cab.
I believe that's how he got to the rooming house.
It's you who's struggling with Oswald's movements. I have a vague memory you believe something really wacky but I can't remember what it is, just that you didn't have the balls to openly state it and someone else had to do it for you.

The word you're looking for is "advice".
Feel free to keep any advice you're offering to yourself

You've never spoon fed me any evidence. Ever.
You never answer a direct question or deal with any issue raised that you can't explain.

What does Whaley's manifest tell you?



This is how you answer a direct question.

Looking at the above manifest, in particular entry #14, the first thing to notice is the "P" in the left hand column. This indicates the fare was a 'pick-up'. 8 of Whaley's fares that day were 'pick-ups' and 13 were 'calls'. If the passenger was Oswald fleeing the TSBD we would expect him to be a 'pick up'.
The next relevant column tells us the pick-up point was 'Greyhound'. This is a reference to the Greyhound bus station at 207 Lamar Street. Whaley was parked on Lamar close to Jackson. He spotted 'Oswald' approaching south on Lamar. This is the direction we would expect Oswald to be approaching from if he'd abandoned the bus on Elm St.
The next column tells us the destination was '500 No. Beckley', the 500 block on North Beckley Avenue (note no specific house number is given). This is the street Oswald lives on, so the fare travels from close to the TSBD to close to 1026 North Beckley. This is what we would expect if it is Oswald. That he gets dropped off past his address is easily explained as someone on the run wanting to check if anyone is waiting for him outside where he lives.
The next column reports the fare as 95 cents (incorrectly reported as 85 cents by Fritz)
The next column indicates it was a single passenger as we would expect if it was Oswald.
The next two columns record the time picked up and dropped off. It must be noted that all the figures in these two columns are estimations. This is clear by the fact all the numbers are rounded up to either 5 or 0. The 8 fares between 11:00am and 2:45pm are all given in 15 minute blocks. This tallies with Whaley's account of not using a watch and estimating his times. The best we can say is that Whaley picks up this fare somewhere between 12:30pm and 12:45pm. As we would expect if it was Oswald after abandoning the bus.
The next two columns indicate that the distance travelled was 3 miles. All the figures in these columns are also rounded up. The actual distance of the trip is 2.6 miles and takes around 7 minutes.

There is nothing in Whaley's manifest that is inconsistent with the account of Oswald catching a cab after abandoning the bus.

The question is - why would anyone want to fake the bus ride and cab ride? What's the point? Why not just fake one or the other?
And if you believe they are fake then how did he get to the rooming house?

Looking at the above manifest, in particular entry #14, the first thing to notice is the "P" in the left hand column. This indicates the fare was a 'pick-up'. 8 of Whaley's fares that day were 'pick-ups' and 13 were 'calls'. If the passenger was Oswald fleeing the TSBD we would expect him to be a 'pick up'.
The next relevant column tells us the pick-up point was 'Greyhound'. This is a reference to the Greyhound bus station at 207 Lamar Street. Whaley was parked on Lamar close to Jackson. He spotted 'Oswald' approaching south on Lamar. This is the direction we would expect Oswald to be approaching from if he'd abandoned the bus on Elm St.
The next column tells us the destination was '500 No. Beckley', the 500 block on North Beckley Avenue (note no specific house number is given). This is the street Oswald lives on, so the fare travels from close to the TSBD to close to 1026 North Beckley. This is what we would expect if it is Oswald. That he gets dropped off past his address is easily explained as someone on the run wanting to check if anyone is waiting for him outside where he lives.
The next column reports the fare as 95 cents (incorrectly reported as 85 cents by Fritz)
The next column indicates it was a single passenger as we would expect if it was Oswald.
The next two columns record the time picked up and dropped off. It must be noted that all the figures in these two columns are estimations. This is clear by the fact all the numbers are rounded up to either 5 or 0. The 8 fares between 11:00am and 2:45pm are all given in 15 minute blocks. This tallies with Whaley's account of not using a watch and estimating his times. The best we can say is that Whaley picks up this fare somewhere between 12:30pm and 12:45pm. As we would expect if it was Oswald after abandoning the bus.
The next two columns indicate that the distance travelled was 3 miles. All the figures in these columns are also rounded up. The actual distance of the trip is 2.6 miles and takes around 7 minutes.

There is nothing in Whaley's manifest that is inconsistent with the account of Oswald catching a cab after abandoning the bus.

The question is - why would anyone want to fake the bus ride and cab ride? What's the point? Why not just fake one or the other?
And if you believe they are fake then how did he get to the rooming house?

Looking at the above manifest, in particular entry #14, the first thing to notice is the "P" in the left hand column. This indicates the fare was a 'pick-up'. 8 of Whaley's fares that day were 'pick-ups' and 13 were 'calls'. If the passenger was Oswald fleeing the TSBD we would expect him to be a 'pick up'.
Now, that's an astute bit of reasoning!!

The next relevant column tells us the pick-up point was 'Greyhound'. This is a reference to the Greyhound bus station at 207 Lamar Street. Whaley was parked on Lamar close to Jackson. He spotted 'Oswald' approaching south on Lamar. This is the direction we would expect Oswald to be approaching from if he'd abandoned the bus on Elm St.

WOW! Another brilliant observation.  However you neglected   to mention that Whaley said that he was at the bus depot at 12:30 and Lee Oswald was still at the TSBD at 12:30, Whaley also noticed that the man was dressed in a BLUE JACKET, and BLUE trousers, and of course Lee Oswald was NOT wearing a BLUE JACKET o r BLUE trousers. So you're flat wrong in naming Lee Oswald as that man.

The next column tells us the destination was '500 No. Beckley', the 500 block on North Beckley Avenue (note no specific house number is given). This is the street Oswald lives on, so the fare travels from close to the TSBD to close to 1026 North Beckley. This is what we would expect if it is Oswald. That he gets dropped off past his address is easily explained as someone on the run wanting to check if anyone is waiting for him outside where he lives.

What an utterly absurd idea!!.....The time would have been about 12:40 ( because Whaley logged his passenger out of his taxi at 12:45.  Just plain old common sense would tell a reasonable person that the police couldn't be at the rooming house just ten minutes after the shooting. This idea is actually a real hoot and  belly buster.  One caveat....    The police could have been at the rooming house if they had fore knowledge that Oswald was the designated patsy and he was living at 1026 N. Beckley.     DO YOU BELIEVE THE POLCE HAD FORE KNOWLEDGE?

The next column reports the fare as 95 cents (incorrectly reported as 85 cents by Fritz)

Fritz did not "incorrectly" report what Lee told him.   There were other officers in the room and they recorded that Lee said he paid the driver of the taxi he was in, 85 cents.   You know this is the truth, so why do you embarrass yourself with such a blatant lie?

The next column indicates it was a single passenger as we would expect if it was Oswald.

The fact that the man was alone is somehow evidence that the man was Lee Oswald!1   


The next two columns record the time picked up and dropped off. It must be noted that all the figures in these two columns are estimations. This is clear by the fact all the numbers are rounded up to either 5 or 0. The 8 fares between 11:00am and 2:45pm are all given in 15 minute blocks. This tallies with Whaley's account of not using a watch and estimating his times. The best we can say is that Whaley picks up this fare somewhere between 12:30pm and 12:45pm. As we would expect if it was Oswald after abandoning the bus.

Wow! another absurd conclusion!.....  Whaley's trip manifest says that he dropped his passenger at 12:45 and then drove to "station" and picked up another passenger at 1:00 pm , and he was back at Greyhound at 1:15.....  He couldn't have picked up the man who was wearing a BLUE JACKET and delivered him to 500 N. Beckley much later than 12:35 , and then made it to "station" in time to pick up another passenger at 1:00pm.

The next two columns indicate that the distance travelled was 3 miles. All the figures in these columns are also rounded up. The actual distance of the trip is 2.6 miles and takes around 7 minutes.

What was the elapsed time when the WC had Whaley re-enact his trip.?...   

There is nothing in Whaley's manifest that is inconsistent with the account of Oswald catching a cab after abandoning the bus.

At last...A reasonable and truthful statement.....EXCEPT.....  Lee told the interrogators that he rode in a CITY cab and the fare was 85 cents, so he was NOT in Whaley's taxi....

[Vincent Baxter]

As much as I'm enjoying reading all the posts in this thread is anyone actually going to come up with an explanation of how Oswald got from Dealey Plaza to his Rooming House in less than half an hour if the bus and taxi ride combo is actually nonsense?

[Dan O'meara]

A few things Walt,

Your notion that Oswald was picked up at 12:30pm exactly and dropped off at 12:45pm exactly is embarrassing.
Look at all of the times Whaley records in his manifest, there are all rounded figures ending in 5 or 0. Many of his fares are recorded in 15 minute blocks. any buffoon can see they are estimations, just as Whaley says they are. They are not to be treated with the precision you give them. This is so obvious.
Look at the times and ask yourself if they represent the actual times he picked people up and dropped them off.

Just because Whaley was at the bus station at 12:30pm doesn't mean he picked up Oswald at this time.

Where is Whaley's quote that Oswald was wearing a blue jacket? I can't find it.

[Dan O'meara]

As much as I'm enjoying reading all the posts in this thread is anyone actually going to come up with an explanation of how Oswald got from Dealey Plaza to his Rooming House in less than half an hour if the bus and taxi ride combo is actually nonsense?

No

[Vincent Baxter]

Very Well, Mr Mytoe....  It is a recorded FACT that Whaley said that the man whom he transported to Oakcliff was wearing a BLUE JACKET and BLUE trousers that matched the BLUE Jacket.

Lee went to his room at 1:00pm at the rooming house and changed his clothes Those items of clothing were found in the dresser where Lee told the interrogators he had placed them.   Detective Potts recorded the items that they found in Lee's room ..... Potts recorded that the shirt was a REDDISH BROWN, long sleeve shirt, with a BUTTON DOWN COLLAR.   There was NO  BLUE clothing found in Lee's room...And there was NO JACKET ....

Clearly , Whaley's passenger was NOT Lee Oswald.   

Clearly it wasn't Oswald...even though Whaley actually identified Oswald in the police line up as being the passenger he took to Oakcliffe?

Are you basically insinuating that Whaley was incapable of making a reliable positive ID of his passenger when face to face with him in a line up but when it came to getting a definitive and accurate description of what he was wearing hours earlier there's absolutely no possibility of him making a mistake?

 

[Walt Cakebread]

Clearly it wasn't Oswald...even though Whaley actually identified Oswald in the police line up as being the passenger he took to Oakcliffe?

Are you basically insinuating that Whaley was incapable of making a reliable positive ID of his passenger when face to face with him in a line up but when it came to getting a definitive and accurate description of what he was wearing hours earlier there's absolutely no possibility of him making a mistake?

 

Hi Vincent....In a nut shell....I believe that Bill Whaley was a big BSer....... He started BSing his fellow cabbies about how he had transported the killer just minutes after he'd shot the President.    It was all BS....  Whaley did in fact transport a young man to 500 N. Beckley but it was NOT Lee Oswald.    He said the man was dressed in a BLUE JACKET and BLUE trousers.... That was NOT how Lee was dressed.   He never realized that his dispatcher would call the police and notify them that one of the drivers had transported Lee Oswald just minutes after the assassination.

At any rate once he'd opened his mouth and started lying ...he was stuck.   He was too embarrassed to admit that he had been BSing and the cops didn't want him to admit it....They needed Whaley to show that Lee had traveled by bus and taxi to reach the rooming house. At that point they wanted proof that Lee had in fact been at the scene of the crime......

[Walt Cakebread]

A few things Walt,

Your notion that Oswald was picked up at 12:30pm exactly and dropped off at 12:45pm exactly is embarrassing.
Look at all of the times Whaley records in his manifest, there are all rounded figures ending in 5 or 0. Many of his fares are recorded in 15 minute blocks. any buffoon can see they are estimations, just as Whaley says they are. They are not to be treated with the precision you give them. This is so obvious.
Look at the times and ask yourself if they represent the actual times he picked people up and dropped them off.

Just because Whaley was at the bus station at 12:30pm doesn't mean he picked up Oswald at this time.

Where is Whaley's quote that Oswald was wearing a blue jacket? I can't find it.

Where is Whaley's quote that Oswald was wearing a blue jacket? I can't find it.

 Mr. BALL. Did you notice how he was dressed?

  Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir. I didn’t pay much attention to it right then. But it
     all came back when I really found out who I had. He was dressed in just
     ordinary work clothes. It wasn’t khaki pants but they were khaki material,
     blue faded blue color, like a blue uniform made in khaki. Then he had on a
     brown shirt with a little silverlike stripe on it and he had on some kind
     of jacket, I didn’t notice very close but I think it was a work jacket that
     almost matched the pants.

Your notion that Oswald was picked up at 12:30pm exactly and dropped off at 12:45pm exactly is embarrassing.


I've never said that the man who was wearing a BLUE JACKET was picked up at precisely 12:30.....   Whaley said that he was at the Greyhound bus depot at 12:30.   He decided he needed a package of cigarettes, so he got out of his cab and was about to go inside the depot to buy a pack of cigarettes  when the young man who was wearing a BLUE JACKET approached and asked if he could hire the taxi.

That time could have been as late as 12:35.....  But it makes no difference ....because Lee was still at the TSBD at that time and he was NOT wearing a BLUE JACKET.

[John Mytton]

Where is Whaley's quote that Oswald was wearing a blue jacket? I can't find it.

 Mr. BALL. Did you notice how he was dressed?

  Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir. I didn’t pay much attention to it right then. But it
     all came back when I really found out who I had. He was dressed in just
     ordinary work clothes. It wasn’t khaki pants but they were khaki material,
     blue faded blue color, like a blue uniform made in khaki. Then he had on a
     brown shirt with a little silverlike stripe on it and he had on some kind
     of jacket, I didn’t notice very close but I think it was a work jacket that
     almost matched the pants.

Your notion that Oswald was picked up at 12:30pm exactly and dropped off at 12:45pm exactly is embarrassing.


I've never said that the man who was wearing a BLUE JACKET was picked up at precisely 12:30.....   Whaley said that he was at the Greyhound bus depot at 12:30.   He decided he needed a package of cigarettes, so he got out of his cab and was about to go inside the depot to buy a pack of cigarettes  when the young man who was wearing a BLUE JACKET approached and asked if he could hire the taxi.

That time could have been as late as 12:35.....  But it makes no difference ....because Lee was still at the TSBD at that time and he was NOT wearing a BLUE JACKET.

You must have missed my earlier post, let me repost it here.

The line of argument that we can just dismiss an eyewitness because of a clothing discrepancy is absurd, from the time we are babies we first learn to recognise faces, like our mothers and fathers and as we continue to age when we first see someone we look at their face to gauge, attractiveness, emotion, etc, as they say, you make a good first impression by smiling and what a person is wearing comes a distant second, our fashion choices don't define who we are.

For example I went shopping at the local corner shop yesterday and I definitely know who served me and if I had to, I could say without reservation that that person was the one who packaged my bread and milk but if I had to recall their clothes then I simply couldn't because I had no reason to remember, much like Whaley who only remembered Oswald's bracelet because he made similar jewellery and seeing Oswald's shiny bracelet was of interest, but otherwise Oswald was just another customer.

In the following image is shown the man wearing BLACK who in and around Port Arthur killed 35 people and many eyewitnesses were face to face with this mass murderer and positively identified him and later this same man admitted to the crime.



These eyewitnesses all positively identified the same man and understandably have differing memories on the clothing colour but if we use the same criteria of throwing out eyewitnesses because of a silly colour discrepancy then we'd still have a mass murderer on the loose. And this highlights the problem with rabid JFKA CT's, outside this single case, they have no real life experience!

Name of Witness: DUTTON Christian Names: James David       brown jacket
Name of Witness: KINGSTON Christian Names: Ian Gregory     green jacket
Name of Witness: BEEKMAN Christian Names: Michael Dean     ski type jacket, blue, orange and a few other colours on it
Name of Witness: WILLIAMS Christian Names: Colin Sydney    3/4 length jacket, dark in appearance
Name of Witness: WILLIAMS Christian Names: Iris Emelia     He had on a jacket of some description.
Name of Witness: SARGENT Christian Names: Michael Robert   blue jacket
Name of Witness: RIVIERE Christian Names: John Michael     “High length’ black jacket
Name of Witness: OLSON Christian Names: MARY LEE           I think was green
Name of Witness: LEVER Cristian Names: Coralee Helen       dark jacket
Name of Witness: NASH Christian Names: Carolyn Louise      khaki green jacket or parker type jacket
Name of Witness: BALASKO Christian Names: James            black jacket
Name of Witness: McKENNA Christian Names: Rebecca Kate     ski type jacket which was zipped all the way up. it was either navy, blue or grey.

JohnM