Re-examining the bullet fragments

[Andrew Mason]

I would be interested to know whether anyone has measured the amount of copper in the bullet fragments recovered from the car.  The idea is rather simple:  If the weight of the copper in the two fragments CE567 and CE569 that were found in the president's car exceed the weight of a single copper jacket, then the fragments must represent two distinct bullets.

It appears that no one has done that - at least nothing has ever been reported on it.  Ken Rahn's focus has always been on the lead composition, which as we now know, is meaningless.

The two pieces of copper found in the President's car were:

    1.    CE567 which was the nose portion of a bullet recovered from the front seat of the car and consisting of mostly copper but also containing a visible bit of lead, weighing 2.890 grams in total:

    2.    CE569 which was recovered from the front seat and is reported to consist entirely of copper, weighing 1.361 grams:



A summary of the fragment weights and descriptions can be found here:
https://www.kenrahn.com/JFK/Scientific_topics/NAA/NAA_and_assassination_II/The_fragments.html

Together these fragments weigh 4.251 g. But for CE567 some of the total mass of 2.890 g. is lead as can be seen in the photos.  See:
 

I would also be interested to know whether anyone has been able to determine if CE567 and CE569 were ever connected.  Even if the total copper is less than the total mass of a single copper jacket, I expect it to be close.  With 3D imaging software I expect someone could determine if there are any parts of these fragments that broke off from each other - or perhaps show that there is an overlap.

[Joe Elliott]

I would be interested to know whether anyone has measured the amount of copper in the bullet fragments recovered from the car.  The idea is rather simple:  If the weight of the copper in the two fragments CE567 and CE569 that were found in the president's car exceed the weight of a single copper jacket, then the fragments must represent two distinct bullets.

It appears that no one has done that - at least nothing has ever been reported on it.  Ken Rahn's focus has always been on the lead composition, which as we now know, is meaningless.

The two pieces of copper found in the President's car were:

    1.    CE567 which was the nose portion of a bullet recovered from the front seat of the car and consisting of mostly copper but also containing a visible bit of lead, weighing 2.890 grams in total:

    2.    CE569 which was recovered from the front seat and is reported to consist entirely of copper, weighing 1.361 grams:



A summary of the fragment weights and descriptions can be found here:
https://www.kenrahn.com/JFK/Scientific_topics/NAA/NAA_and_assassination_II/The_fragments.html

Together these fragments weigh 4.251 g. But for CE567 some of the total mass of 2.890 g. is lead as can be seen in the photos.  See:
 

I would also be interested to know whether anyone has been able to determine if CE567 and CE569 were ever connected.  Even if the total copper is less than the total mass of a single copper jacket, I expect it to be close.  With 3D imaging software I expect someone could determine if there are any parts of these fragments that broke off from each other - or perhaps show that there is an overlap.

I would guess that the only way to come up with an accurate estimate would be to:

1. Melt the two fragments, CE 567 and CE 569
2. Extract all the copper from the resulting melt.
3. Measure the mass of the resulting copper.

This would, of course destroy the two fragments, making it impossible to due future tests on the fragments, which have not been thought of yet, but may be possible in the future.

Is this what should be done?

Or is there some what of measuring the amount of copper without destroying the two fragments?

[Andrew Mason]

I would guess that the only way to come up with an accurate estimate would be to:

1. Melt the two fragments, CE 567 and CE 569
2. Extract all the copper from the resulting melt.
3. Measure the mass of the resulting copper.

This would, of course destroy the two fragments, making it impossible to due future tests on the fragments, which have not been thought of yet, but may be possible in the future.

Is this what should be done?

Or is there some what of measuring the amount of copper without destroying the two fragments?

The first step is to determine what a complete copper jacket weighs.  I have a couple of original WC bullets and I was going to take one to a lab and have the jacket separated and weighed.  But I thought someone might already have done that. 

The second step is to determine whether the jacket weighs less than CE567 and CE569 combined. If it weighs more, then we cannot draw any conclusions.  If it weighs less, then we have the more difficult task of estimating the mass of lead in CE567, subtracting that and seeing if the bare jacket still weighs less.

[Jerry Organ]

According to the source below, the jacket weighed 51 grains (3.3 g)

Fragment       HSCA Weight CE 567 (Nose)       41.5gr (2.69 g) CE 569 (Base)       20.6 gr (1.33 g) Thus we end up with about 4 g of metal. Maybe 1 g for the amount of loose lead in CE 567 (there may be some lead also attached to the jacket, too). So 3 g which is nearly the amount of weight of the jacket.     "We note here that the copper jacket of these bullets weighed 3.3 g      (a  nominal  51  grains),  and  this  value  added  to  the  lead-core      weight  results  in  Winchester’s advertised bullet weight of a      nominal 161 grains."           — Proper Assessment of the JFK Assassination Bullet Lead Evidence                from Metallurgical and Statistical Perspectives (2006) p.24

[Jerry Organ]

Fibers are from cotton used in storage cases.

[Andrew Mason]

According to the source below, the jacket weighed 51 grains (3.3 g)

Fragment       HSCA Weight CE 567 (Nose)       41.5gr (2.69 g) CE 569 (Base)       20.6 gr (1.33 g) Thus we end up with about 4 g of metal. Maybe 1 g for the amount of loose lead in CE 567 (there may be some lead also attached to the jacket, too). So 3 g which is nearly the amount of weight of the jacket.     "We note here that the copper jacket of these bullets weighed 3.3 g      (a  nominal  51  grains),  and  this  value  added  to  the  lead-core      weight  results  in  Winchester’s advertised bullet weight of a      nominal 161 grains."           — Proper Assessment of the JFK Assassination Bullet Lead Evidence                from Metallurgical and Statistical Perspectives (2006) p.24

Thanks Jerry.  That helps a lot.

Copper has a density of 8.96 g/cc.  If we knew the density of the lead/antimony alloy in CE567 we could calculate the amount of copper from an accurate measurement of the total mass and volume of CE567:

Volume of alloy = (total mass - copper density x total volume)/(density difference (alloy-copper)

Volume of copper = total volume - volume of alloy

mass of copper = density copper x volume of copper.

If the mass of the copper exceeds 3.3 grams, then CE567 and CE569 would have to come from two bullets.

Since it appears that the total copper will be fairly close to a full jacket, it is difficult to imagine that if the two exhibits came from the same bullet that there would not be a common edge where they broke apart.

[Jerry Organ]

Since it appears that the total copper will be fairly close to a full jacket, it is difficult to imagine that if the two exhibits came from the same bullet that there would not be a common edge where they broke apart.

If someone were to create 3D models of the two jacket fragments and then showed where they had a "common edge", you wouldn't accept it. You have your Theory where one bullet fragmented when it struck Connally's wrist about Z272 and another fragmented during the head shot.

I don't think there would necessarily be a "common edge" with the front part twisting away from the base like that. There might be a theoretical one where you have to imagine the lands-and-grooves would meet, but not physically point-to-point because the line of attachment had deformed on both fragments. Of course no CT would accept that because they live in a world of forensic perfection; they would jump on the impreciseness of the "common edge" as proof the fragments came from separate bullets.

[Andrew Mason]

If someone were to create 3D models of the two jacket fragments and then showed where they had a "common edge", you wouldn't accept it. You have your Theory where one bullet fragmented when it struck Connally's wrist about Z272 and another fragmented during the head shot.

I don't think there would necessarily be a "common edge" with the front part twisting away from the base like that. There might be a theoretical one where you have to imagine the lands-and-grooves would meet, but not physically point-to-point because the line of attachment had deformed on both fragments. Of course no CT would accept that because they live in a world of forensic perfection; they would jump on the impreciseness of the "common edge" as proof the fragments came from separate bullets.

Not at all.  It is quite possible that the two fragments, CE567 and 569 are from the same bullet. It might even be likely, since they are from opposite ends of the bullet.  That would just prove that only one bullet left behind large copper fragments.  This was likely the one whose fragments struck the windshield and windshield frame and went over the windshield to strike the curb near Tague.

But if the copper is from two different bullets then it would show that all three shots (including CE399) struck in the car.  That would disprove the SBT.