Oswald: No power lunch

[Martin Weidmann]

Ok, Sorry,  I over looked this.....

For the purpose of this exercise I'll assume that the killer did in fact come down the stairs immediately after the shots. Full disclosure; I personally do not believe he did. I'll refer to the shooter on the 6th floor as "Oswald"


I'm not sure that I understand....    Do you believe that there was a sniper firing on the President from the sixth floor?

I'm 99% certain that there was no sniper firing from the sixth floor SE corner window.    However Howard Brennan did swear that he saw a 165 pond man who was dressed in khaki and STANDING  and AIMING a rifle from a sixth floor window. 

Naturally Brennan could NOT have seen that man behind the partially open window at the SE corner of the sixth floor because it would have been physically impossible for a 5 ' 9"  man to STAND UPRIGHT behind that window and aim a rifle down at Elm street.   ( If he had fired the bullet would have hit the cement ledge beneath the window)   

So unless Brennan mixed up the chronology ( and he saw the man at about the same circa as Arnold Rowland) then he hd to have seen the man behind one of the west end windows.   

Personally, I believe that Brennan did see the khaki clad "deputy sheriff security guard " ( recall that Rowland thought the guy was a security guard) earlier than he said he did, which he said was DURING the shooting.    I think that in the excitement of the event he morphed the earlier sighting of the standing man behind the window and scanning the crowd below with the scope ( Rowland said the "security guard's rifle had a large scope mounted on it) on the rifle.

The bottom line i'm 99% sure that there were no shots fired from the TSBD ....and i'm 100% sure that no shot was fired from the SE corner window.

Walt, my timeline was/is merely a hypothesis based on as much of the evidentiary information that is available.

Do you believe that there was a sniper firing on the President from the sixth floor?

That requires a determination which I am not willing or able to make based on the available evidence. It would be most helpful if it had been determined that the MC rifle found on the 6th floor had actually been fired.

[Walt Cakebread]

Walt, my timeline was/is merely a hypothesis based on as much of the evidentiary information that is available.

Do you believe that there was a sniper firing on the President from the sixth floor?

That requires a determination which I am not willing or able to make based on the available evidence. It would be most helpful if it had been determined that the MC rifle found on the 6th floor had actually been fired.

Based on the fact that the FBI refused to test the rifle until it had been cleaned a oiled, I'd say the rifle was in poor condition,
(  dirty and rusty) .... And if the rifle's bore was dirty and corroded, it could NOT have been fired on 11-22-63....

If it had been fired on 11-22-63 the bore would have been relatively clean, because the projectiles and hot gasses, traveling through that barrel would have blown any dirt out of the barrel...  But the FBI refused to fire the rifle until it had been cleaned and oiled.   

And there is a whole host of other evidence that the carcano was NOT fired that day.....One of the spent shells was badly dented and it could not have been fired that day....  ( and being ejected into cardboard boxes most certainly would not dent a carcano casing.)

And there's still  more evidence that totally crushes the theory that the Carcan was the murder weapon.....

[Martin Weidmann]

Based on the fact that the FBI refused to test the rifle until it had been cleaned a oiled, I'd say the rifle was in poor condition,
(  dirty and rusty) .... And if the rifle's bore was dirty and corroded, it could NOT have been fired on 11-22-63....

If it had been fired on 11-22-63 the bore would have been relatively clean, because the projectiles and hot gasses, traveling through that barrel would have blown any dirt out of the barrel...  But the FBI refused to fire the rifle until it had been cleaned and oiled.   

And there is a whole host of other evidence that the carcano was NOT fired that day.....One of the spent shells was badly dented and it could not have been fired that day....  ( and being ejected into cardboard boxes most certainly would not dent a carcano casing.)

And there's still  more evidence that totally crushes the theory that the Carcan was the murder weapon.....

I can understand your reasoning and it raises some good points. The main one being that an investigative body like the FBI should indeed have made sure that a rifle found near the alleged crime scene was actually fired or not. I can not think of one good reason for them not wanting to find out, but it seems they were not interested.

[Walt Cakebread]

I can understand your reasoning and it raises some good points. The main one being that an investigative body like the FBI should indeed have made sure that a rifle found near the alleged crime scene was actually fired or not. I can not think of one good reason for them not wanting to find out, but it seems they were not interested.

That's because the director of the FBI was one of the key conspirators....

[Mitch Todd]

The events of 11/22/63 only happened one way. The best and easiest way to establish what really happened is by putting all the known information in a timeline and see what fits and what doesn't. Several months ago, I did exactly that and this was the result;

https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,2585.msg93118.html#msg93118 [...]

I guess Martin loves his "timelines." Right off, I see a problem with this one. Adams testified that when she reached the first floor, she saw Lovelady and Shelly enter the building through a door on the north side of the building. She also said she didn't see Oswald coming down, nor Baker/Truly going up.

Shelley and Lovelady, for their part, recalled a their circuitous path to the rear of the TSBD as follows:

1.) At the last shot sounded, they were standing in the TSBD entryway. They remained there until Gloria Calvery ran up and announced that JFK had been shot. Lovelady estimated that this was about 3 minutes after the shots. It couldn't have been near much of a delay: Loevelady said that he saw Baker headed into the TSBD as he was moving towards the west end of Old Elm.
2.) Shelley and Lovelady then crossed the street in front of the Depository (not Elm street, but the the stub of Old Elm that leads to the parking lot on the GK)
3.) They then turned west and went to the edge of the rail yards
4.) After watching the activity going on in in that area, Lovelady and Shelley then went back to the TSBD and re-entered the building through a back door. Lovelady testified that, when he entered the building, he saw one of the Scott-Foresman girls. He thought it was Adams, but wasn't sure.

Even if Lovelady was off as to the initial delay before he and Shelley took off to the west, all of that movement took a while. Further, He saw Baker headed into the building as he and Shelley were running away from it.
 
When you put all of this together, Adams and Styles have reached the first floor after Baker and Truly passed  by going up. And after Oswald had made it to the lunch room on the second floor.

Adams also testified that, after she had circled around the outside of the TSBD, she heard a broadcast on a police motorcycle radio "said that shots had been fired which apparently came either from the second floor or the fourth floor window". She said that this news concerned her, since she had been "at the only open window on the fourth floor." On the DPD recordings, the second floor isn't identified as a possible shooting location until 12:38, and the 4th floor isn't mentioned until 12:40 (both transmissions on channel two, BTW).
 

[Martin Weidmann]

I guess Martin loves his "timelines." Right off, I see a problem with this one. Adams testified that when she reached the first floor, she saw Lovelady and Shelly enter the building through a door on the north side of the building. She also said she didn't see Oswald coming down, nor Baker/Truly going up.

Shelley and Lovelady, for their part, recalled a their circuitous path to the rear of the TSBD as follows:

1.) At the last shot sounded, they were standing in the TSBD entryway. They remained there until Gloria Calvery ran up and announced that JFK had been shot. Lovelady estimated that this was about 3 minutes after the shots. It couldn't have been near much of a delay: Loevelady said that he saw Baker headed into the TSBD as he was moving towards the west end of Old Elm.
2.) Shelley and Lovelady then crossed the street in front of the Depository (not Elm street, but the the stub of Old Elm that leads to the parking lot on the GK)
3.) They then turned west and went to the edge of the rail yards
4.) After watching the activity going on in in that area, Lovelady and Shelley then went back to the TSBD and re-entered the building through a back door. Lovelady testified that, when he entered the building, he saw one of the Scott-Foresman girls. He thought it was Adams, but wasn't sure.

Even if Lovelady was off as to the initial delay before he and Shelley took off to the west, all of that movement took a while. Further, He saw Baker headed into the building as he and Shelley were running away from it.
 
When you put all of this together, Adams and Styles have reached the first floor after Baker and Truly passed  by going up. And after Oswald had made it to the lunch room on the second floor.

Adams also testified that, after she had circled around the outside of the TSBD, she heard a broadcast on a police motorcycle radio "said that shots had been fired which apparently came either from the second floor or the fourth floor window". She said that this news concerned her, since she had been "at the only open window on the fourth floor." On the DPD recordings, the second floor isn't identified as a possible shooting location until 12:38, and the 4th floor isn't mentioned until 12:40 (both transmissions on channel two, BTW).
 

I guess Martin loves his "timelines." Right off, I see a problem with this one.

The "problems" you see are imaginary. Ever since you implicitely claimed, in another thread, that the ambulance that took Tippit to the hospital was driving at 30 mph, I'm having a hard time taking anything you say seriously.

Shelley and Lovelady, for their part, recalled a their circuitous path to the rear of the TSBD as follows:

1.) At the last shot sounded, they were standing in the TSBD entryway. They remained there until Gloria Calvery ran up and announced that JFK had been shot. Lovelady estimated that this was about 3 minutes after the shots. It couldn't have been near much of a delay: Loevelady said that he saw Baker headed into the TSBD as he was moving towards the west end of Old Elm.
2.) Shelley and Lovelady then crossed the street in front of the Depository (not Elm street, but the the stub of Old Elm that leads to the parking lot on the GK)
3.) They then turned west and went to the edge of the rail yards
4.) After watching the activity going on in in that area, Lovelady and Shelley then went back to the TSBD and re-entered the building through a back door.

And that took an estimated five minutes after the shots. It couldn't have been much more because at around 12:36 the back of the building was sealed off.

Lovelady testified that, when he entered the building, he saw one of the Scott-Foresman girls. He thought it was Adams, but wasn't sure.

No, Lovelady didn't testify that. He did not say he thought it was Adams.

Mr. BALL - Who did you see in the first floor?
Mr. LOVELADY - I saw a girl but I wouldn't swear to it it's Vickie.
Mr. BALL - Who is Vickie?
Mr. LOVELADY - The girl that works for Scott, Foresman.

He, in fact, said - without being asked specifically - that he wouldn't swear it was Vickie. Now why would he say that, when he wasn't asked? Could it be the WC lawyers had already talked to him prior to his testimony and he simply did not feel comfortable naming somebody just because they wanted him to?

Even if Lovelady was off as to the initial delay before he and Shelley took off to the west, all of that movement took a while. Further, He saw Baker headed into the building as he and Shelley were running away from it.

So what?

When you put all of this together, Adams and Styles have reached the first floor after Baker and Truly passed  by going up. And after Oswald had made it to the lunch room on the second floor.

Non sequitur. Dorothy Garner told Martha Strout a different story. Your story, as so often, does not match all the known facts. Also for this to be even remotely true, quod non, Adams and Styles, before going down, would have had to wait until Baker and Truly had reached the 4th floor and gone up the the 5th. However, Adams testified she did not see Truly or a motorcycle police officer at any time, which would be strange if the men had come up to the 4th floor and Adams and Styles were still there.

Adams also testified that, after she had circled around the outside of the TSBD, she heard a broadcast on a police motorcycle radio "said that shots had been fired which apparently came either from the second floor or the fourth floor window". She said that this news concerned her, since she had been "at the only open window on the fourth floor." On the DPD recordings, the second floor isn't identified as a possible shooting location until 12:38, and the 4th floor isn't mentioned until 12:40 (both transmissions on channel two, BTW).

And this is where your "theory" falls apart. Shelley and Lovelady returned to the building at around 12:35 or 12:36, just before the back of the building was sealed off by police. For Adams and Styles to see the men at that moment, means they most likely wouldn't have made it out of the building due to the lockdown. But let's, for argument's sake, say they did, the girls were on heels and had the walk around three sides of the building, over railway tracks and talk to a police man who stopped them (in the railway yard). There is no way that Adams and Styles could have made it to the front entrance in two minutes.

Even worse, Styles entered the building straight away and was not stopped. That means she got there before the building was locked down (which apparently happened at 12:36 or 12:37)! Adams hung around outside to talk to some girls and it was then that she heard the radio broadcast. When she, subsequently, tried to enter the building it was sealed off and she was initally stopped.

Your timeline doesn't add up and does not match the known facts. That's what happens when you try to focus on one piece of uncorroborated information and ignore everything else.

It seems you simply do not understand or want to understand how the timeline fits together, so let me try to explain by asking some questions, you probably will not answer.

1. The front entrance of the building was sealed off at around 12:36. Sandra Styles was not stopped when she entered the building. Do you agree that Styles (and Adams) must have arrived at the front entrance at 12:36 at the latest?

2. If Adams and Styles arrived at the front entrance at 12:36 at the latest, do you agree they must have exited the building at the back at least three minutes earlier (given the fact that they walked three sides of the building), which means at around 12:33?

3. If Adams and Styles did in fact leave the building at 12:23 (or perhaps even earlier), how could Adams have seen Shelley and Lovelady entering the building at around 12:35?

My timeline provides the most probable explanation for this discrepancy; Adams and Styles saw Shelley and Lovelady, not when the men entered the building, but when they were still standing on the railway yard, where Adams and Styles passed them on their way to the front of the building. Witnesses do not always get everything correct, even in their testimony under oath.

[Jack Nessan]

The actions of Harkness, Styles and Adams have absolutely nothing to do with the RR Yard.

Harkness and Sawyer provide time stamps for the testimony and statements of Adams and Styles. Shelley and Lovelady, and Adams and Styles also corroborate each other’s statements. The whole question of when did Adams and Styles leave the fourth floor is answered by comparing their statements and testimonies against the times provided by the others. Personally, I have a hard time imagining two women doing anything in a hurry. Let alone leaving on a drop of a hat. It turns out they never left until 12:35 or later. The time it takes to walk through the building and meet Harkness and officers in the back of the building.

Adam's is also consistent as is Styles that they were sent back to the TSBD by a police officer. The back of the building was not sealed off by Sargeant Harkness until after 12:36. At least 5 minutes after the shooting. Sawyer never sealed off the front of the building until 12:37 or later.

Mr. BELIN - How long did it take you after that to have the back part sealed off?
Mr. HARKNESS - The guard was arriving by the time I got off my motorcycle. There was already additional squads en route.
Mr. BELIN - How soon after 12:36 p.m., would you say the building was sealed off?
Mr. HARKNESS - It was sealed off then because I was back there and two other men.
Mr. BELIN - You are talking about the back part of the building?
Mr. HARKNESS - Yes, sir.

===============================

This is confirmed by Inspector Sawyer:

Mr. BELIN. When you say check the security on the building, what do you mean by that?
Mr. SAWYER. Well, to be sure it was covered off properly, and then posted two men on the front entrance with instructions not to let anyone in or out.
Mr. BELIN. What about the rear entrance?
Mr. SAWYER. We'll, I also had the sergeant go around and check to be sure that all of those were covered, although he told me that they were already covered.

-------------------------------------

Mr. BELIN. To go up and look around and come down?
Mr. SAWYER. To look around on the floor. How long it took to go up, it couldn't have been over 3 minutes at the most from the time we left, got up and back down.
Mr. BELIN. Then that would put it around no sooner than 12:37, if you heard the call at 12:34?
Mr. SAWYER. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Then you got down and what did you do?
Mr. SAWYER. I asked the Sergeant to doublecheck the security around the building, and then I took two patrolmen and stationed them at the front door and told them, with instructions not to let anybody in or out.
Mr. BELIN. Now up to the time you did this, had anyone else sealed off the building, that you know of?
Mr. SAWYER. When I arrived, the sergeant told me he had the building sealed off. There were officers all around the building. To the best of my recollection, there was no officer actually stationed on the front door, at the front door. There was some on the sidewalk in front of the front door, and also, as far as I know, had no instructions been issued to anyone to let anybody in or out.

[Martin Weidmann]

The actions of Harkness, Styles and Adams have absolutely nothing to do with the RR Yard.

Harkness and Sawyer provide time stamps for the testimony and statements of Adams and Styles. Shelley and Lovelady, and Adams and Styles also corroborate each other’s statements. The whole question of when did Adams and Styles leave the fourth floor is answered by comparing their statements and testimonies against the times provided by the others. Personally, I have a hard time imagining two women doing anything in a hurry. Let alone leaving on a drop of a hat. It turns out they never left until 12:35 or later. The time it takes to walk through the building and meet Harkness and officers in the back of the building.

Adam's is also consistent as is Styles that they were sent back to the TSBD by a police officer. The back of the building was not sealed off by Sargeant Harkness until after 12:36. At least 5 minutes after the shooting. Sawyer never sealed off the front of the building until 12:37 or later.

Mr. BELIN - How long did it take you after that to have the back part sealed off?
Mr. HARKNESS - The guard was arriving by the time I got off my motorcycle. There was already additional squads en route.
Mr. BELIN - How soon after 12:36 p.m., would you say the building was sealed off?
Mr. HARKNESS - It was sealed off then because I was back there and two other men.
Mr. BELIN - You are talking about the back part of the building?
Mr. HARKNESS - Yes, sir.

===============================

This is confirmed by Inspector Sawyer:

Mr. BELIN. When you say check the security on the building, what do you mean by that?
Mr. SAWYER. Well, to be sure it was covered off properly, and then posted two men on the front entrance with instructions not to let anyone in or out.
Mr. BELIN. What about the rear entrance?
Mr. SAWYER. We'll, I also had the sergeant go around and check to be sure that all of those were covered, although he told me that they were already covered.

-------------------------------------

Mr. BELIN. To go up and look around and come down?
Mr. SAWYER. To look around on the floor. How long it took to go up, it couldn't have been over 3 minutes at the most from the time we left, got up and back down.
Mr. BELIN. Then that would put it around no sooner than 12:37, if you heard the call at 12:34?
Mr. SAWYER. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Then you got down and what did you do?
Mr. SAWYER. I asked the Sergeant to doublecheck the security around the building, and then I took two patrolmen and stationed them at the front door and told them, with instructions not to let anybody in or out.
Mr. BELIN. Now up to the time you did this, had anyone else sealed off the building, that you know of?
Mr. SAWYER. When I arrived, the sergeant told me he had the building sealed off. There were officers all around the building. To the best of my recollection, there was no officer actually stationed on the front door, at the front door. There was some on the sidewalk in front of the front door, and also, as far as I know, had no instructions been issued to anyone to let anybody in or out.

The actions of Harkness, Styles and Adams have absolutely nothing to do with the RR Yard.

Really?

Miss ADAMS - I went west towards the tracks.
Mr. BELIN - How far west did you go?
Miss ADAMS - I went approximately 2 yards within the tracks and there was an officer standing there, and he said, "Get back to the building." And I said, "But I work here."

As far as Harkness is concerned, you might be right, because he wasn't the one to stop Adams and Styles. At 12:36, he was in fact making a radio call about a witness who said the shots were fired from a window of the TSBD.

Harkness and Sawyer provide time stamps for the testimony and statements of Adams and Styles. Shelley and Lovelady, and Adams and Styles also corroborate each other’s statements. The whole question of when did Adams and Styles leave the fourth floor is answered by comparing their statements and testimonies against the times provided by the others.

Then why don't you explain in detail how they corroborate eachother instead of making a vague (and highly incorrect) statement that tells me nothing

Personally, I have a hard time imagining two women doing anything in a hurry. Let alone leaving on a drop of a hat. It turns out they never left until 12:35 or later.

Your personal opinion isn't evidence. Nor is it relevant. And no, it didn't turn out they never left the 4th floor until 12:35. There is no way the women can leave the building at the back, let alone the 4th floor, at 12:35 and be at the front entrance of the building at 12:36, in time for Styles to reenter the building just before it was sealed off.

Adam's is also consistent as is Styles that they were sent back to the TSBD by a police officer. The back of the building was not sealed off by Sargeant Harkness until after 12:36. At least 5 minutes after the shooting. Sawyer never sealed off the front of the building until 12:37 or later.

It doesn't matter how late the back of the building was sealed off, at least not where it concerns Adams and Styles. After the police man told them (in the railway yard) to return to the building, they went to the front entrance, where Styles entered the building without being stopped. When Adams tried to enter, a couple of minutes later, she was stopped as the building was sealed off by then.

So, here's a simple question for you.

After Adams and Styles came down the stairs, they left the building at the loading dock at the back, by using the only stairs available there. They then ran towards the railway yard (which mean running along just about the whole north side of the building. When they got to the railway yard, a police man stopped them and told them to go back. They then ran along the entire side of the building to the dead end street in front of the TSBD. There they turned left and ran all the way to the other side of the building where the main entrance is. They arrived there at no later than 12:36 or 12:37, because when Styles entered the building it was not yet sealed off.

If Adams and Styles arrived at the front entrance at 12:36 or 12:37 at the latest, do you agree they must have exited the building at the back at least three minutes earlier (given the fact that they walked three sides of the building), which means at around 12:33?