Oswald: No power lunch

[Martin Weidmann]

I said that the ambulance averaged about 30mph. You seem not to realize that they have to slow down quite a bit to make corners and while crossing major intersections. It doesn't help the patient to roll the ambulance or be t-boned by cross traffic while running a red light. Those slowdowns affect their average speed more that you might think. Also, they started at 0 mph and ended at the same speed. An overweight station wagon relying on early 1960's drivetrain, suspension, and braking technology isn't going to respond to driver inputs like a modern F1 car. It's not going to rocket ahead, and the driver will have to think ahead before decelerating to give the car enough room  and time to decelerate.  It can't be thrown around city streets like a Lewis Hamilton track day.  I'm sure that they went as fast as they could, but that's not liable to be as fast as some people want to imagine.

I said that the ambulance averaged about 30mph.

No, you didn't. You said that the ambulance needed 3 minutes to cover 1,5 miles and required even more time to put Tippit on a stretcher and into the ambulance. The way you presented that was that it took minutes which was utterly ridiculous. All you were trying to do back then is find "reasons" to push back the time as much as possible to cover up the discrepancies in the official narrative. And you are doing the same here all over again.... What a surprise.

You seem not to realize that they have to slow down quite a bit to make corners and while crossing major intersections.

BS. The Hughes Funeral home was only a block away. From there to 10th street involved only two corners. The ambulance got to the scene in less than 30 seconds! Once they picked up Tippit, all the ambulance needed to do (and did) was get on to East Davis (again only two corners in a residential area with no heavy traffic) and from there turn right on North Beckley.
From that point on it was a straight line to the hospital with only one major intersection (Zang) to cross.

To argue that, with sirens and lights on and hardly any obstacles on the road, the ambulance would have driven no faster than an average of 30 mph is just plain silly.

Btw I'm actually surprised that you didn't go so far as to claim the ambulance had to stop for people crossing the street and traffic lights..... 

Your position is based on the notion that there was a "lockdown" and/or "the building was sealed off" at 12:36. (Yeah, I know you weasel it out to "about 12:36" at some point, buy you always refer back to 12:36 as a hard point.)

More BS. In the timeline I made clear that the times were approximations. You must have missed that in your eagerness to make an invalid point.

The 12:36 comes ultimately comes from DV Harkness' channel two transmission (it also appears on channel one as an instance of the acoustically-coupled crosstalk that figures prominently in the acoustic analysis debate).  This transmission is commonly rendered as "Witness says shots came from fifth floor, Texas Book Depository Store and Houston and Elm. I have him with me now and we are sealing off the building." This rendering is incorrect. The transmission really says, "I have a witness that says they came from the fifth floor of the Texas Depository bookstore at Houston and Elm. I have him with me now, we're going to seal off the building."  All we know about what's going on at 12:36 is that someone intends to "seal off" the building. Not that it is being done at that moment, and definitely not that it has been already been done.

Harkness testified that after the shots, he first drove his motorcycle west on Main all the way to Industrial, then he turned around, came back to Dealey Plaza, and wound up driving west down Old Elm all the way to the fence on the GK. There, he encountered Amos Euins. He took Euins' statements broadcast them via radio. This is the "12:36" broadcast in Harkness' testimony. He then put Euins on his bike and drove Euins to Sawyer's' car, which was parked in front of the Depository. Once there, Harkness got Euins off the bike, put him in Sawyer's car, got Sawyer's attention and explained Euins' situation. Only then does Harkness go to "seal off" the "back of the building." Even then, it's going to take some time for him to get into position. All of this activity, from transmission get taking position behind the building, would easily consume another minute, maybe another two or three. Instead of Harkness sealing off any part of the building at 12:36, it's really more like 12:37 at the earliest. Maybe 12:38. Or 12:39. Maybe even later.

One minute of Channel two air time after the Harkness transmission, LL Hill radios the channel 2 dispatcher to assign officers to "cover this school depository building." They still don't have the personnel to seal it off at that point and are requesting the officers needed to do it. More evidence that the "lockdown" wasn't locking anything at 12:36.

In reality, there is no good reason to claim that the building was sealed off, locked down, covered, etc. at 12:36 or even at "about 12:36." All we can say is that the building was surrounded and sealed off at some point after 12:36. 

BTW, Harkness also has a somewhat interesting idea of what "seal off the building" means. Consider this exchange:

Mr. BELIN - When you told Inspector Sawyer that you had a witness that said the shot came from the building, up to that particular moment, had the front part of the building been sealed off yet?
Mr. HARKNESS - Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN - It had already been sealed off?
Mr. HARKNESS - There was two officers with Inspector Sawyer at the front.
Mr. BELIN - Were they stopping people from going in and out?
Mr. HARKNESS - I don't know.
Mr. BELIN - You don't know?
Mr. HARKNESS - No, sir; I don't know that, because I didn't go up and talk to them.

According to Harkness' logic, "sealing off" a building means nothing more than having a couple of cops standing around next to it. It doesn't help us know exactly when the cops out front started to actively control people entering and exiting the front door. Even then, they didn't do a very good job of it: Vickie Adams was able to get past a cop at the door merely by saying she worked in the building, and without needing someone like Shelley or Truly vouching for her residency in the building. That's not much in the way of a "lockdown."

I should probably add that there is no good reason to believe that the DPD on-site at the TSBD went from 0% lockdown to 100% lockdown in an instant. Nor is there a good reason to assert that the cordon was uniformly enforced at any given time until its final form emerged. Harkness' testimony and LL Hill's broadcast imply that officers were assigned piecemeal as they arrived. Harkness testimony indicates that, at least initially, the officers assigned to cordon off the building weren't given particularly clear or detailed instructions, other than just surrounding the building. I think it safe to assume that they would have instinctively figured that the object was to cover avenues of escape in the event that the perpetrator were still in the building. But that doesn't mean they automatically understood that they needed to keep everyone out, at least in the beginning.

The 12:36 comes ultimately comes from DV Harkness' channel two transmission

I'm not sure where you are getting this from, but I never said that and it is actually incorrect

Only then does Harkness go to "seal off" the "back of the building." Even then, it's going to take some time for him to get into position. All of this activity, from transmission get taking position behind the building, would easily consume another minute, maybe another two or three. Instead of Harkness sealing off any part of the building at 12:36, it's really more like 12:37 at the earliest. Maybe 12:38. Or 12:39. Maybe even later.

So much irrelevant "reasoning" to make a completely insignificant point, because Harkess was sealing off the back of the building and Styles and Adams entered the building at the front entrance, so whatever Harkness was doing at that point in time is of no importance.

And there's one more thing to consider:

Miss ADAMS - I proceeded out to the Houston Street dock.
Mr. BELIN - That would be on this same diagram? It is marked Houston Street dock, and you went through what would be the north door, which is towards the rear of the first floor, is that correct?
And down some stairs towards the rear of the dock?
Miss ADAMS - That's correct.
Mr. BELIN - Where did you go from there?
Miss ADAMS - I proceeded--which way is east and west?
Mr. BELIN - East is here. East is towards Houston, and west is towards the railroad tracks. You went east or west? Towards the railroad tracks or towards Houston Street?
Miss ADAMS - I went west towards the tracks.
Mr. BELIN - How far west did you go?
Miss ADAMS - I went approximately 2 yards within the tracks and there was an officer standing there, and he said, "Get back to the building." And I said, "But I work here."
And he said, "That is tough, get back." I said, "Well, was the President shot?" And he said, "I don't know. Go back." And I said, "All right."
Mr. BELIN - Then what did you do?
Miss ADAMS - I went back, only I went southwest.

So, she heads north until she gets to the north corner of the TSBD, then turns west. Before she gets very far, she is confronted by a police officer who tells her "get back to the building." She then gets to Old Elm by travelling southwest. That latter bit indicates that she skirted the angled west side on the TSBD. In turn, it indicates that the confrontation with the police officer must have occurred very close to the TSBD. That is precisely what I would expect if she had run into the cordon being established by Harkness and the other two officers detailed to him for that purpose. Adams' testimony, then, indicates that she didn't exit the building until after the cordon began to be established. And if Harkness and his two guys weren't in position until after 12:36, Adams could not have left the building until after Harkness' 12:36 broadcast.

Adams' testimony, then, indicates that she didn't exit the building until after the cordon began to be established.

No, she did not indicate that at all. It's your speculative conclusion based upon your assumption that "the cordon began to be established" when Adams left the building. There is not a shred of evidence for that assumption.

What actually happened is that after Harkness delivered Euins to Sawyer, he and other two officers were instructed by Sawyer to check the railway yard, which is what they subsequently did. Adams testified that she got to approximately 2 yards within the tracks when she encountered a police officer who told her to go back to the building. So, the obvious conclusion must be that Adams encountered a police officer who had been ordered to check the railway yard. That's it. That's all we know. Everything else originates from your imagination.

So, let's go back to your three questions:

1. The front entrance of the building was sealed off at around 12:36. Sandra Styles was not stopped when she entered the building. Do you agree that Styles (and Adams) must have arrived at the front entrance at 12:36 at the latest?

There is no reason to believe that the building was "locked down" at 12:36. In fact, the evidence indicates that this happened at some point after 12:36. Also, Adams' testimony indicates that she did not leave the building until after a cordon was already being esatablished.

Wrong on all counts and it doesn't even answer my question. There is good reason to believe that the front entrance of the building was locked down at around 12:36 / 12:37 because Sawyer testified that he posted two men at the main entrance at that exact moment. And nowhere in her testimony does Adams indicate that she did not leave the building until after a cordon was established. You just made that up.

2. If Adams and Styles arrived at the front entrance at 12:36 at the latest, do you agree they must have exited the building at the back at least three minutes earlier (given the fact that they walked three sides of the building), which means at around 12:33?

Depends on the assumptions stated in question 1. Those assumptions have been shown to be unwarranted, so this question is invalid from the get go.

3. If Adams and Styles did in fact leave the building at 12:33 (or perhaps even earlier), how could Adams have seen Shelley and Lovelady entering the building at around 12:35?

This also depends on your unwarranted assumptions in question one.

You have not shown that my so-called assumptions are unwarrented. All you have done is concocted your own little bogus story about when the back of the building was locked down.

Adams testified that she saw Lovelady and Shelley on the first floor. She was allowed to review her testimony in print, and she literally signed off on it with not objections as to her testimony as to Lovelady and Shelley's presence in the first floor.

And yet Shelley and Lovelady did not confirm seeing Adams and Styles, despite the back area of the first floor being an open area and Adams told Barry Ernest that she wasn't aware this was in her testimony and she denied ever saying it. Also, the preponderance of evidence shows that it was a physical impossibility for Adams to see Shelley and Lovelady, when they re-entered the building at 12:35.

When all other parts of the evidence fit, the only thing that does not fit must be regarded as unreliable and not the other way around!

Dorothy Garner told Martha Strout a different story

Truly testified that, as he came back down the stairs from the roof, he ran into another DPD officer on the 4th floor who had climbed up at some point after Truly and Baker. I would suggest that Garner saw this and would later put the wrong 2 + 2 together after hearing about the initial Truly/Baker effort.

Aha... another mistaken or confused witness.... How convenient.

The Stroud letter is clear; Garner said she saw Truly and a police come up after the girls had gone down. That was relevant information which warranted to be included in the letter. Truly coming down and meeting another officer on the 4th floor would have been of no significance. But, nice try 

Your story, as so often, does not match all the known facts.
You're the last guy who needs to cast stones. You house has good shatter insurance, does it?

When you need to bend and misrepresent the facts as much as you do, it's pretty obvious that I have made my point, yet again!

Also for this to be even remotely true, quod non, Adams and Styles would have had to wait until Baker and Truly had reached the 4th floor and gone up the the 5th and Adams testified she did not see Truly or a motorcycle police officer at any time, which would be strange if the men had come up to the 4th floor and Adams and Styles were still there.

Adams and Styles were looking out through a window in an office on the south side of the building. The stairwell was on the north side, with at least one wall and a stockroom full of books in between. There is no reason to expect Styles and Adams to have noticed someone coming up the stairwell on the far side of the building with so much obstruction in the way.

First of all, where did you get the notion that the stockroom was full of books? Another assumption perhaps? Secondly, you assume that Adams and Styles stayed at the window after the shots, when in fact they didn't. In the wall between the office space and the stockroom, there is a door. Adams, Styles and Garner went through that door and directly to the stairs. They would have seen anybody in the area of the stairs, but even if they didn't see anybody, they most certainly would have heard somebody running on those wooden stairs and floors.

The bottom line is a simple one; in the timeline I have presented everything fits and is corroborated except for the location where Adams saw Shelley and Lovelady.

For your alternative timeline (fragments) to work, witnesses have to be mistaken, confused or misunderstood, Victoria Adams' testimony needs to be misrepresented, the lock down didn't happen when the officers said it did and it wasn't really a lock down at all. What you still haven't figured out is that more you have to misrepresent details to make a counter argument the less credible your story becomes.

Now, instead of making all sorts of assumptions that go nowhere, why don't you try to put together a timeline that takes in account all the known information and actually works? Shouldn't be so hard to do if you are sure you are right.....

[Jack Nessan]

This map provides a great visual to what occurred in the movements of Styles and Adams. The WC put this question to rest in April of 1964 by providing time stamps to their movements.

Styles and Adams, left the fourth floor at approximately 12:35 and hurried through the TSBD where they encountered Shelley and Lovelady near the first floor elevator. Why that is important is Shelley and Lovelady had traveled around the area before returning to the TSBD. Styles and Adams, after having encountered Shelley and Lovelady near the elevator, were stopped by the Police as they exited the rear of the TSBD near the dock. Styles and Adams were told to return to the building which they did but they followed the RR track spur running alongside the building walking back to Elm Street. Both statements leave no confusion as to where they encountered the police after 12:36 and how they returned to the front of the building before 12:37.

Adams statement is telling because she states she went "southwest" where from any other place but the back of the building doesn't lead to Elm Street.

Styles statement is telling from the standpoint she states they went "around to the front of the building" which given the nature of the layout of the track describes it perfectly.

Miss ADAMS - I went back, only I went southwest.

Styles: "...We then went around to the side of the building where we saw a policeman talking to someone whom I did not recognize. I was told by a policeman to go around to the front of the building and out of that area...."

[Martin Weidmann]

This map provides a great visual to what occurred in the movements of Styles and Adams. The WC put this question to rest in April of 1964 by providing time stamps to their movements.

Styles and Adams, left the fourth floor at approximately 12:35 and hurried through the TSBD where they encountered Shelley and Lovelady near the first floor elevator. Why that is important is Shelley and Lovelady had traveled around the area before returning to the TSBD. Styles and Adams, after having encountered Shelley and Lovelady near the elevator, were stopped by the Police as they exited the rear of the TSBD near the dock. Styles and Adams were told to return to the building which they did but they followed the RR track spur running alongside the building walking back to Elm Street. Both statements leave no confusion as to where they encountered the police after 12:36 and how they returned to the front of the building before 12:37.

Adams statement is telling because she states she went "southwest" where from any other place but the back of the building doesn't lead to Elm Street.

Styles statement is telling from the standpoint she states they went "around to the front of the building" which given the nature of the layout of the track describes it perfectly.

Miss ADAMS - I went back, only I went southwest.

Styles: "...We then went around to the side of the building where we saw a policeman talking to someone whom I did not recognize. I was told by a policeman to go around to the front of the building and out of that area...."

So, what you are actually trying to say is that Adams and Styles needed no more that 2 minutes to (1) go down the stairs, (2) leave the building at the back and walk around the loading dock towards the railway yard, (3) go round the building including the annex next to railway tracks and (4) walk down the street in front of the TSBD towards the main entrance?

All that in 2 minutes or less? Really?   

[Dan O'meara]

Do you think that all these men were involved and to what extent and what motivated them to "lie"?

JohnM

No, I don't think all these men were involved and they lied for very different reasons.
The point is, they all lied in their various statements and I don't see how that fits in with just a bunch of normal working guys going about their day. The were questioned by the DPD, the FBI and the SS in an era when these institutions were feared.
If you don't believe they did lie, we can have that conversation.

[Alan Ford]

Styles and Adams, left the fourth floor at approximately 12:35 ... they returned to the front of the building before 12:37.

Ah, but:

Miss ADAMS. When I got there (the front of the building, A.F.), I happened to look around and noticed several of the employees, and I noticed Joe Molina, for one, was standing in front of the building, and also Avery Davis, who works with me, and I said, "What do you think has happened?" And she said, "I don't know."

Have you pondered the implications of the above for your timeline, Mr Nessan? It would seem not!

 

[Jerry Freeman]

Dan O posted an excellent map of the TSBD 1st floor........




 

That floor plan looks like a Robert Cutler draft.
My curiosity concerns the basement of the building. What is in that basement? Is it or not 100X100 feet square like the rest of the floors? What was in that basement back at the time of the assassination? Was the basement searched for possible hidden suspects when the cops stormed the building?

[Martin Weidmann]

To add to my previous reply to Mitch Todd, let's examine for a minute the hypocrisy of his position.

In his last post he wrote;

And there's one more thing to consider:

Adams testified that she saw Lovelady and Shelley on the first floor. She was allowed to review her testimony in print, and she literally signed off on it with not objections as to her testimony as to Lovelady and Shelley's presence in the first floor.

Although what he said is true, in as much as that it says that in her testimony and she did indeed sign the document, which btw happened several days after her testimony when somebody showed up at her workplace and asked her to sign it, after she initially waived signing it.

Todd's hypocrisy is nevertheless on full display, because in the same testimony, Adams also says;

Mr. BELIN - Sometime after the third shot, and I don't want to get into the actual period of time yet, you went back into the stockroom which would be to the north of where your offices are located on the fourth floor, is that correct?
Miss ADAMS - Yes, sir; that's correct.
Mr. BELIN - When you got into the stockroom, where did you go?
Miss ADAMS - I went to the back stairs.

and

Mr. BELIN - How long do you think it was between the time the shots were fired and the time you left the window to start toward the stairway?
Miss ADAMS - Between 15 and 30 seconds, estimated, approximately.
Mr. BELIN - How long do you think it was, or do you think it took you to get from the window to the top of the fourth floor stairs?
Miss ADAMS - I don't think I can answer that question accurately, because the time approximation, without a stopwatch, would be difficult.
Mr. BELIN - How long do you think it took you. to get from the window to the bottom of the stairs on the first floor?
Miss ADAMS - I would say no longer than a minute at the most.
Mr. BELIN - So you think that from the time you left the window on the fourth floor until the time you got to the stairs at the bottom of the first floor, was approximately 1 minute?
Miss ADAMS - Yes, approximately.

yet Todd completely ignores that and dismisses it, while at the same time attaching great importance to the Shelley/Lovelady remark.

It is obvious there is a great discrepancy between the two remarks, as the Shelley/Lovelady remark implies that Adams and Styles left the 4th floor much later than Adams testified she did. When there are two contradicting statements from a witness, the best way to determine which one is the correct statement is to look for corroboration.

Sow, let's see what Adams told the investigators prior to her testimony;

On 11/24/63 FBI agents Hardin and Scott wrote in their FD 302 report that Adams had said;

"She and her friend then ran immediately to the back of the building to where the stairs were located and ran down the stairs"

On 02/17/64 she told Jim Leavelle;

"After the third shot I went out the back door" and "The elevator was not running and there was no one on the stairs"

and on 03/23/64 she told the FBI

"After the third shot I observed the car carrying President Kennedy speed away. Sandra Styles and I then ran out of the building via the stairs"

In all these statements, Adams is perfectly consistent in saying that she and Styles ran to the stairs after the third shot

And Sandra Styles backs her up. In her statement to the FBI of 03/23/64 she said;

"I heard shots but thought at the time that they were fireworks. I was unaware of the place the shots came from. I saw people running and others lie down on the ground and realized something was happening but did not know exactly what was happening. Victoria Adams and I left the office at this time, went down the back stairs and left the building at the back door.

And then of course there is Dorothy Garner who, according to Martha Stroud, said she saw Baker and Truly come up after the girls (Adams and Styles) had gone down. Garner explained to Barry Ernest that she did not actually see the girls go down, but she could hear them on the noise stairs.

All these statements sufficiently corroborate Adams testimony - I am paraphrasing - that she and Styles left their position at the window and went to the stairs at the back of the building within seconds after the third shot.

Now let's examine what corroboration there is for the Shelley/Lovelady remark.

To say that there isn't any would be a misrepresentation of the facts, because Jim Leavelle wrote in his report of 02/17/64 that Adams said;

"I saw Mr. Shelley and another employee named Bill"

But that's about it.

Note that Adams did not say when and where she saw Shelley and Lovelady. That bit of information was only added on during her testimony on 04/07/64. It should also be noted that Adams was not included in the re-enactment of the events on 03/20/64, so before she even testified the WC lawyers were already not interested in what she had to say about what actually happened on 11/22/63.

Also note that Shelley, Lovelady and Sandra Styles did not confirm the alleged encounter on the first floor at the TSBD and that closer examination of Shelley's and Lovelady's actions after the shot show that both men were in the railway yard next to the TSBD until 12:35, which means there is no physical way Adams could have seen both men on the first floor if she came down the stairs immediately after the third shot. On the other hand, it is indeed possible that Adams saw Shelley and Lovelady in the railway yard as she passed the men on her way to the front entrance.

And finally it should be noted that on 04/04/64 WC assistant counsel Leon Hubert wrote a remarkable memo in which he refered to a recent staff meeting in which he had objected to what he called "editing of the transcripts of depositions". In the same memo he also complains about the practice of waiving signatures by the witnesses and advocates to have witnesses read and sign the transcript even if it contains errors, which according to him can later be rectified.

Now, isn't it just remarkable that Victoria Adams initially waived signing her testimony, as that would save her from having to return to sign it, only to be confronted by somebody at work a few days later who insisted she would sign after all. And isn't it just as remarkable that Victoria Adams told Barry Ernest that she never testified that she saw Shelley and Lovelady on the first floor?

[Richard Smith]

Oswald took a rifle to work and assassinated the President.

That's a gross over simplification, and you should be embarrassed to post such silliness.

You've been around long enough to know that nobody can prove that Lee took a rifle to work , and in fact there is strong evidence that refutes the idea. 

And Lee had a very strong alibi that refutes any contention that he was on the sixth floor at the alleged "Sniper's Nest " at the time that JFK was murdered.  Lee said that he was in the 1st floor lunchroom when the president's parade passed by the TSBD.
And he saw two fellow employees pass through the first floor while he was sitting there in the lunchroom eating his lunch.

Why do you insist on keeping your head tucked in where you can't see or hear the truth/

A "strong alibi"!  Even a CTer can't believe that.  I want you on the jury if I'm ever arrested for a crime.  The only evidence of Oswald having an alibi is that he said so.  His rifle is found at the crime scene with bullet casings from that rifle by the window.  His prints are on the SN boxes and rifle.  He flees the scene within minutes even after a police officer pulls a gun on him without pausing to ask what is going on.  He is identified by multiple witnesses as the murderer of a police officer that occurs a short distance and time away.  But he tells the police he was having lunch so it's all good.  HA HA HA.