Oswald: No power lunch

[Walt Cakebread]

That anyone would argue whether or not it's possible to lean out of a window and look down into the street is f"^king ridiculous.
Of course Oswald in the Sniper's Nest could look down into the street and maybe he could discern the movements of Norman and Jarman out of the dozens of people milling around down there. But to then spin the yarn that Oswald could tell Norman and Jarman were walking around to the back of the building and were going to enter through the loading dock entrance is worthy of a Ford or a Cakebread and I'm surprised your not a little embarrassed by it.
Obviously, Oswald's supposed reporting of seeing Norman and Jarman entering the TSBD, and this actually happening, is a problem for the LN narrative but weaving such a weak fable is not helpful.

One of the most striking features of this case are the lies of the 6th floor crew and other TSBD employees surrounding their movements at the time of the assassination - Williams, Norman, Jarman, Shelley, Lovelady, Givens and Dougherty all lie. It's a truly remarkable thing.
Each man lies for his own, very different reasons and it is possible to discern a pattern in the lying.
No-one lies more than Bonnie Ray Williams. He lies about every single aspect of his time on the 6th floor prior to the assassination and I believe he drags Norman and Jarman into his lies to cover for him (unsuccessfully) with the authorities. Williams does everything in his power to distance himself from the Sniper's Nest at the time of the assassination
I also believe Williams encounters the assassin in the Sniper's Nest and this is the reason for all the lying.

Of course Oswald in the Sniper's Nest could look down into the street and maybe he could discern the movements of Norman and Jarman out of the dozens of people milling around down there.

Really ??    Do you actually believe that Lee Oswald IF HE HAD BEEN AT THE WINDOW??   Would look down at two negro employees who were standing next to the building six stories down and identify those two by looking at the top of their heads.
 Lee told Captain Fritz that he didn't know those two employees who he saw walk past the Domino Room, and  across the first floor, and yet some LNer dunderheads  Irrationally believe that Lee was there at that window looking down at the top of their heads and he read their minds.... so he knew that they were planning to go around to the rear of the TSBD and they would walk past the Domino Room windows and across the loading dock and enter the first floor to take the west elevator up to the fifth floor.

And That, my friends is how Leeeee Harrrrrrvey Ossssswald ( Boooo Hissss) knew that Jarman and Norman walked by the first floor lunchroom at 12:26.......


 But to then spin the yarn that Oswald could tell Norman and Jarman were walking around to the back of the building and were going to enter through the loading dock entrance is worthy of a Ford or a Cakebread and I'm surprised your not a little embarrassed by it.
Obviously, Oswald's supposed reporting of seeing Norman and Jarman entering the TSBD, and this actually happening, is a problem for the LN narrative but weaving such a weak fable is not helpful.

[Dan O'meara]

You don't think Givens told the bigger lies?

Charles Givens gave completely different accounts between his initial statements and his Warren Commission testimony months later.

His original account placed Oswald on the first floor around noon the same as a few other witnesses.

We don't know why Givens changed his testimony but there's speculation that he was coerced.

To be honest, I don't think it's that relevant who was telling the "bigger lies".
If these were just ordinary working men going about their day why are they all lying - that's the real issue as far as the LN narrative is concerned.

Wiliams
Norman
Jarman
Givens
Shelley
Lovelady
Dougherty

All of them lying.

I too think Givens had nothing to do with the events of that day but was coerced into giving false testimony.

If Oswald is the lone shooter why all the lies.

[Alan Ford]

I have publicly speculated for a number of years that Bonnie Ray while looking for his companions was at some stage standing with Oswald in the Sniper's nest. And this undesired link with Oswald created some discrepancies in the recollections from the three black men in the windows directly below.

I have privately speculated for a number of years that Mr Williams while looking for his companions was at some stage standing with Mr Oswald in the Sniper's nest. Mr Oswald bullied Mr Williams into putting on a plaid shirt. Mr Williams was so upset he aged some 40 years. This ageing process so affected his eyesight, hearing and general cognitive faculties that he didn't even notice Mr Oswald leaving the Sniper's nest, going over to the west end of the floor and picking up a rifle.

 

[John Mytton]

To be honest, I don't think it's that relevant who was telling the "bigger lies".
If these were just ordinary working men going about their day why are they all lying - that's the real issue as far as the LN narrative is concerned.

Wiliams
Norman
Jarman
Givens
Shelley
Lovelady
Dougherty

All of them lying.

I too think Givens had nothing to do with the events of that day but was coerced into giving false testimony.

If Oswald is the lone shooter why all the lies.

That's a pretty broad brush and I'd like to know which "lies" and from whom you consider leads to someone besides Oswald being involved and why?
I believe that Oswald was a lone gunman and any "lies" from these men were simply attempts at self preservation and as expected over time their recollections became contaminated, and after talking with each other they simply told the authorities what they think the authorities wanted to hear. These men were mostly non educated factory workers and expecting consistent untainted photo perfect memories is a little naive.

JohnM

[Alan Ford]

To be honest, I don't think it's that relevant who was telling the "bigger lies".
If these were just ordinary working men going about their day why are they all lying - that's the real issue as far as the LN narrative is concerned.

Wiliams
Norman
Jarman
Givens
Shelley
Lovelady
Dougherty

All of them lying.

I too think Givens had nothing to do with the events of that day but was coerced into giving false testimony.

If Oswald is the lone shooter why all the lies.

Mr O'Meara, you have made it clear that you believe
-Mr Oswald was not the Sniper's Nest shooter
-there was no outside assassination team in the Depository for the motorcade

Do you believe the Sniper's Nest shooter was an employee?

If so, do you believe this shooter was Mr Jack Dougherty?

[Dan O'meara]

That's a pretty broad brush and I'd like to know which "lies" and from whom you consider leads to someone besides Oswald being involved and why?
I believe that Oswald was a lone gunman and any "lies" from these men were simply attempts at self preservation and as expected over time their recollections became contaminated, and after talking with each other they simply told the authorities what they think the authorities wanted to hear. These men were mostly non educated factory workers and expecting consistent untainted photo perfect memories is a little naive.

JohnM

"...any "lies" from these men were simply attempts at self preservation..."

Self preservation??
These are supposedly just guys being asked to recount what they saw and did around the time of the assassination. Where does "self preservation" come into it?

"That's a pretty broad brush and I'd like to know which "lies" and from whom you consider leads to someone besides Oswald being involved and why?"

To get into the full scale of the lies these men tell would require a thread of its own but let's start with Bonnie Ray.
On the day of the assassination he is asked to recount what happened. This is a black man being questioned by the Dallas police in the early sixties. And he decides to tell an outright lie - that he went down after work, picked up his lunch and went back up to the 5th floor with Norman and Jarman.
This is an outright lie.
Not an oversight or a "misrememberance".
He is questioned the next day by the FBI (The FBI!!). He now remembers he went up to the 6th floor by himself but tells his next outright lie - that he was up there for about 3 minutes!
We now know that he was up there for at least 25 minutes.
His WC testimony reveals that the more BRW is questioned on this issue the longer he's up there:

"...when you talked to Carter and Griffin, they reported that you told them you went down to the fifth floor around 12:05 p.m"

"I had left the sixth floor, after I had eaten the chicken sandwich. I finished the chicken sandwich maybe 10 or 15 minutes after 12"

"Mr. BALL. Approximately what time was it?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Approximately 12:20, maybe."

3 minutes, 5, 10 15, 20, and still he never gets to the actual time.
After being questioned by the DPD, the FBI and the Warren Commission he still won't tell the whole truth.

He also lies about where he has his lunch. At least 5 five witnesses state there was a half eaten piece of chicken in or on top of the SN but in his WC testimony BRW has himself sat between the third and fourth set of windows, some 30 ft away.

He even lies about having eaten all the chicken!!

Bonnie Ray lies constantly about being up on the 6th floor, how long he was up there and where he was sitting.
He is a young black man, in Dallas, in the early '60's, constantly lying to the DPD, the FBI and the Warren Commission.

We both agree that the reason for all this lying is because BRW encountered the assassin on the 6th floor.
The question is - if Oswald is the lone assassin and is dead before the weekend is out, why does Bonnie Ray carry on lying?
The only reasonable conclusion I can reach is that the assassin he encountered is very much alive and is a direct threat to him.

"...expecting consistent untainted photo perfect memories is a little naive."

You're right John, anyone who is expecting a photo perfect memory from any witness is definitely being naive.
But that's not is what's happening. Williams outright lies on the day of the assassination and is then involved in a continuous series of lies thereafter.

Imagining Williams is being forgetful is truly naive.

[Dan O'meara]

Mr O'Meara, you have made it clear that you believe
-Mr Oswald was not the Sniper's Nest shooter
-there was no outside assassination team in the Depository for the motorcade

Do you believe the Sniper's Nest shooter was an employee?

If so, do you believe this shooter was Mr Jack Dougherty?

Yes Alan, I do believe the shooter is Jack Dougherty.

[Walt Cakebread]

"...any "lies" from these men were simply attempts at self preservation..."

Self preservation??
These are supposedly just guys being asked to recount what they saw and did around the time of the assassination. Where does "self preservation" come into it?

"That's a pretty broad brush and I'd like to know which "lies" and from whom you consider leads to someone besides Oswald being involved and why?"

To get into the full scale of the lies these men tell would require a thread of its own but let's start with Bonnie Ray.
On the day of the assassination he is asked to recount what happened. This is a black man being questioned by the Dallas police in the early sixties. And he decides to tell an outright lie - that he went down after work, picked up his lunch and went back up to the 5th floor with Norman and Jarman.
This is an outright lie.
Not an oversight or a "misrememberance".
He is questioned the next day by the FBI (The FBI!!). He now remembers he went up to the 6th floor by himself but tells his next outright lie - that he was up there for about 3 minutes!
We now know that he was up there for at least 25 minutes.
His WC testimony reveals that the more BRW is questioned on this issue the longer he's up there:

"...when you talked to Carter and Griffin, they reported that you told them you went down to the fifth floor around 12:05 p.m"

"I had left the sixth floor, after I had eaten the chicken sandwich. I finished the chicken sandwich maybe 10 or 15 minutes after 12"

"Mr. BALL. Approximately what time was it?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Approximately 12:20, maybe."

3 minutes, 5, 10 15, 20, and still he never gets to the actual time.
After being questioned by the DPD, the FBI and the Warren Commission he still won't tell the whole truth.

He also lies about where he has his lunch. At least 5 five witnesses state there was a half eaten piece of chicken in or on top of the SN but in his WC testimony BRW has himself sat between the third and fourth set of windows, some 30 ft away.

He even lies about having eaten all the chicken!!

Bonnie Ray lies constantly about being up on the 6th floor, how long he was up there and where he was sitting.
He is a young black man, in Dallas, in the early '60's, constantly lying to the DPD, the FBI and the Warren Commission.

We both agree that the reason for all this lying is because BRW encountered the assassin on the 6th floor.
The question is - if Oswald is the lone assassin and is dead before the weekend is out, why does Bonnie Ray carry on lying?
The only reasonable conclusion I can reach is that the assassin he encountered is very much alive and is a direct threat to him.

"...expecting consistent untainted photo perfect memories is a little naive."

You're right John, anyone who is expecting a photo perfect memory from any witness is definitely being naive.
But that's not is what's happening. Williams outright lies on the day of the assassination and is then involved in a continuous series of lies thereafter.

Imagining Williams is being forgetful is truly naive.

You da man , Dan.....

We both agree that the reason for all this lying is because BRW encountered the assassin on the 6th floor.

I hope you won't resent my disagreement, Dan....  But I don't believe BRW encountered any assassin ( however I'm not 100% sure about that.)  I believe BRW encountered a "deputy sheriff" or a "security guard"  (recall that Brennan said that the man with the rifle as wearing khaki colored clothing)    That "deputy Sheriff" with a rifle,  would be very intimidating to a young black man like BRW.  If that "Sheriff" told BRW to get his ass off the sixth floor and forget that he had seen the "sheriff's deputy"  there. You can bet that William's would have disappeared from the sixth floor like a snowflake in the Sahara.  And he would never ever tell anybody about what he had seen.

I sincerely do not believe any shots were fired from the sixth floor .....In spite of the fact that Howard Brennan said that he saw the Khaki clad man STANDING and aiming a rifle out of a sixth floor window.   There's little doubt that Brennan saw the man aiming a rifle out of a sixth floor window..... In the excitement and mayhem of the shooting Brennan simply morphed a scene that he had seen a little earlier ( about the same time and place that Arnold Rowland saw the man with the rifle) The "security guard" who was dressed in khaki was using the scope on the rifle to see if his confederates were in place behind the stockade fence.