Do JFKA CT's also believe that 9/11 was a U.S. Government conspiracy?

[Jerry Organ]

So no "Trump-idolizers and McConnell-Graham-Cruz-GOP supporters" here who are LNers?   

No LNer here who claimed, for example, that Babbitt was a patriot who was "murdered"? That Joe Biden is an invalid?

And where did you come up with this "Many American LNers..?" I've seen no polls or surveys on JFK conspiracy belief indicating any connection between political ideology and belief in a conspiracy.

Yet, you always tie in JFK conspiracy belief to people on the "left".

Furthermore, the most noted JFK conspiracy believers have been your fellow anti-American leftwingers like Mark Lane and Oliver Stone. Not anyone on the political right (although I guess Garrison could have been put there).

The closet far-right radical. I didn't claim radicalized arch-right American LNers believed in a JFK conspiracy, but they are susceptible to conspiracy theory of their liking, dished up by the likes of Fox News and Breitbart.

[Jon Banks]

JFK and 9/11 conspiracy theory believers seem pretty spread out across the political spectrum.

LN’ers also seem to be pretty ideologically diverse.

How someone views the JFK assassination is rarely predictive of the person’s political views.

One thing I’ve noticed in the last few years is that recent conspiracy theories tend to be more partisan than conspiracy theories of the past. Examples: “Benghazi”, “Fast and Furious”, “Trump-Russia collusion”, “The Great Reset”, “Q-Anon”.

The only recent conspiracy theory that I can think of where there are bi-partisan subscribers is the Jeffrey Epstein stuff. Lots of people on the Left and Right seem to agree that he didn’t kill himself.

[Robert Reeves]

Bushes, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz, etc.

These clowns and their Project for the New American Century were capable of anything. I'm sure the tower's actually collapsing came as an immense surprise to each individual Bush government member. That's the way these thing's happen.

I googled ''Barry Jennings WTC7'' surprisingly he doesn't have a wikipedia page. I find that really odd. This was a very infamous character in the whole 9/11 movement. Out of all the voices re 9/11 I find his version of what was happening on 9/11 the most fascinating and truthful. His disappearance/death just adds to his probable truth.

RIP Barry Jennings, Deputy Director of the Emergency Services Department for the New York City Housing Authority

BTW, I didn't vote. I think these stupid 'conspiracy' votes on this site are used as more fuel to try and wreck someone else's views at a later date. I participated because I believe USA is, and has been, an out of control death machine for way too long and I am never surprised when a tragedy occurs there, or here, or anywhere else.

[Steve M. Galbraith]

"My only disagreement with Steve is that I think both the far left and the far right are equally susceptible to believing in a JFK conspiracy theory."

Joe, yes, I suspect that too. Although I haven't seen any polling data on the question. Has there been any polling on the ideological makeup of JFK conspiracy believers? I'm not aware of it.

There is what political scientists call a "horseshoe theory" where the far political left and far political right, instead of being polar opposites, tend to merge or agree on critical matters. There's a populist far left and a populist far right - think of Bernie Sanders' supporters and Trump supporters - that both believe the government has been stolen, that rich and powerful elites run too much of it. They obviously disagree on who these people are and their purpose behind this control. But both agree there is this cabal that runs things. I think it's this type of thinking that leads to a believe in a JFK conspiracy. That JFK was a threat to this cabal and it was for that that he was silenced.

Part of the problem for us with this view is I'm very confident that the majority of people in many other countries also believe there was a conspiracy behind the assassination. I've seen a poll of people in the UK (can't recall the date) that showed 65% believe there was one. So the far left/far right grouping in the US has to take into account this fact. That is, it's not just the "extremes" that believe this. Although that might be true in other countries too. That is, far left and far right people in the UK or France or Japan (whatever) are more likely to believe in a JFK conspiracy.

Back to Jerry Organ's illogical argument: He says that "Many LNers" watch Fox and Breitbart and have been manipulated into believing government conspiracies. But they don't believe in a 9/11 conspiracy. Or the JFK conspiracy either. That makes no sense to me. If they've been brainwashed into embracing government conspiracy theories then why do they reject the two most famous alleged conspiracies in modern US history?: JFK's death and 9/11/.

[Jerry Organ]

Back to Jerry Organ's illogical argument: He says that "Many LNers" watch Fox and Breitbart and have been manipulated into believe government conspiracies. But they don't believe in a 9/11 conspiracy. Or the JFK conspiracy either.

Many American LNers of a conservative nature. And what's illogical is that if someone believes in one or two conspiracy theories, they have to believe in them all.

Again, that makes no sense. If they've been brainwashed into embracing government conspiracy theories

You obviously think rightwingers are immune to being radicalized for their "cause" (which is not to help America, but to control the government). These Trump supporters (and probably more than a few of their less-entrenched enablers who voted for the arch-right GOP) think much of the conspiracy-think spewing out of a conservative source like Fox News (ie: the Hannity, Carlson, and Ingraham triumvirate) isn't that extreme or harmful. Just testing the waters, rhetoric, or enjoying how the "liberals" overreact.

Birtherism, death panels, the deep state, Charlottesville actors, playing dumb about QAnon or quietly believing it (1/3 of Republican believe it), the "stolen" election, doubt about the COVID vaccine, 1-06 a "false Trump flag ops", Babbitt was murdered in an ambush ...

then why do they reject the two most famous alleged conspiracies in modern US history: JFK's death and 9/11/.

I don't think the "9-11 Conspiracy" really caught on. Seems there's hardly any promotion of it on Fox News; a Republican was President at the time and is well-remembered for his uniting efforts in the aftermath.

[Jon Banks]

There is what political scientists call a "horseshoe theory" where the far political left and far political right, instead of being polar opposites, tend to merge or agree on critical matters. There's a populist far left and a populist far right - think of Bernie Sanders' supporters and Trump supporters - that both believe the government has been stolen, that rich and powerful elites run too much of it. They obviously disagree on who these people are and their purpose behind this control. But both agree there is this cabal that runs things. I think it's this type of thinking that leads to a believe in a JFK conspiracy. That JFK was a threat to this cabal and it was for that that he was silenced.

While it's true that distrust of elites is a characteristic shared by both the Populist Left and Populist Right, it's a stretch to say they all agree on the "cabal" or deep state thing. The "Q-Anon" thing never gained traction on the Left and most people on the US Left view Donald Trump as part of the power elite, not an adversary of the elite. Also, JFK isn't universally loved on the Left. There have been some outspoken critics of JFK like Noam Chomsky, who also rejects that the assassination was a conspiracy.

I do believe that the super wealthy have a disproportionate level of influence and power in the US. That's a simple fact due to the way our political system works, not a theory. What I don't agree with is the view that there is consensus among the power elite. There's no bigger example of the lack of coherence among elites than US policies towards China. While there seems to be consensus among the political elite in the US on confronting China, the economic elite consensus appears to not want to rock the boat with China as they remain our biggest trade partner.

So while it's true that people like Michael Bloomberg and Jeff Bezos have a disproportionate level of political power and influence, it's also true that the elite influencers don't agree on everything and may not trust each other enough to coordinate on some grand conspiracy.

Part of the reason why it's difficult to kill some Conspiracy Theories is that there's almost always a grain of truth in them.

The Roosevelts and Kennedys were viewed as traitors to their elite class. Whether or not it played a role in coup plot against FDR or the assassination of JFK is open for debate but it's understandable why people connect those things.

The same Class dynamics don't appear to be at play in the 9/11 conspiracy theories...

Back to Jerry Organ's illogical argument: He says that "Many LNers" watch Fox and Breitbart and have been manipulated into believe government conspiracies. But they don't believe in a 9/11 conspiracy. Or the JFK conspiracy either. Again, that makes no sense. If they've been brainwashed into embracing government conspiracy theories then why do they reject the two most famous alleged conspiracies in modern US history: JFK's death and 9/11/.

There's no partisan divide on JFK conspiracy theories. As you mentioned earlier, distrust of politicians and the elite is bi-partisan. But trust in elites and institutions is bi-partisan too. 

NBC News-
The One Thing All Americans Agree On: JFK Conspiracy

More than 50 percent of most every demographic group believes “others were involved” in the assassination: Men and women, whites, blacks and Hispanics, registered voters and non-registered, all age groups.

And in an era when the political divides appear in everything from media consumption to shopping habits, the JFK assassination is one area where supporters of President Donald Trump and Hillary Clinton agree: 61 percent of Trump voters and 59 percent of Clinton voters believe “others were involved.”

The one demographic group that believes Oswald acted alone, according to the FiveThirtyEight poll, is college educated white people – and the numbers are very close with 48 percent saying one man killed JFK and 46 percent saying others were involved.

https://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/jfk-assassination-files/one-thing-all-americans-agree-jfk-conspiracy-n815371

[Joe Elliott]

So no "Trump-idolizers and McConnell-Graham-Cruz-GOP supporters" here who are LNers?   

No LNer here who claimed, for example, that Babbitt was a patriot who was "murdered"? That Joe Biden is an invalid?

First of all, I’m looking for LNers who believe in the Large-Secret-Enduring Conspiracy Theory that the 2020 election was stolen from Trump. Not merely LNers who support Trump. We have at least one Trump supporter here who is a LNer. But I know of no LNer who believes in the “Stolen Election” Conspiracy theory.

So, you seem to imply that there are some LNers who believe in the “Stolen Election” Conspiracy theory. Perhaps there are, but I do not know of any. So, echoing Lindsay Graham, I say “Give my ten names.” Or at least give me one.

Question: What famous LNer believes in the “Stolen Election” Conspiracy theory?

Question: What non-famous LNer, maybe someone with this forum”, who believes in the “Stolen Election” Conspiracy theory?

Yet, you always tie in JFK conspiracy belief to people on the "left".

The closet far-right radical. I didn't claim radicalized arch-right American LNers believed in a JFK conspiracy, but they are susceptible to conspiracy theory of their liking, dished up by the likes of Fox News and Breitbart.

Many American LNers of a conservative nature. And what's illogical is that if someone believes in one or two conspiracy theories, they have to believe in them all.

I never claimed that if a person believes in one conspiracy theory they believe in them all. Instead I make the much narrower claim that if one believes in one conspiracy theory, one is more likely to believe in others.

So, I expect that there is a higher percentage of CTers who believe in the “2020 Stolen Election” conspiracy theory than among LNers. And the same would be true for the QAnon, Sandy Hook, 911, Fake-Moon-Landing and other conspiracy theories. A lower percentage of LNers would believe in them than the CTers.

Again, if I am wrong, give me ten names. Or at least give me one.

You obviously think rightwingers are immune to being radicalized for their "cause" (which is not to help America, but to control the government). These Trump supporters (and probably more than a few of their less-entrenched enablers who voted for the arch-right GOP) think much of the conspiracy-think spewing out of a conservative source like Fox News (ie: the Hannity, Carlson, and Ingraham triumvirate) isn't that extreme or harmful. Just testing the waters, rhetoric, or enjoying how the "liberals" overreact.

Birtherism, death panels, the deep state, Charlottesville actors, playing dumb about QAnon or quietly believing it (1/3 of Republican believe it), the "stolen" election, doubt about the COVID vaccine, 1-06 a "false Trump flag ops", Babbitt was murdered in an ambush ...

I don't think the "9-11 Conspiracy" really caught on. Seems there's hardly any promotion of it on Fox News; a Republican was President at the time and is well-remembered for his uniting efforts in the aftermath.

I don’t know if these statements apply to me but no, I don’t think the right wingers are immune to conspiracy theories. I think the far left and the far right are both equally susceptible to anti-democratic conspiracy theories. Theories that, if true, tell us that our democracy is a sham. Conspiracy Theories like JFK, 911, Stolen-2020-Election. Naturally, these theories are equally attractive to those who do not believe in democracy, which includes both the far left and the far right.

[Joe Elliott]

"My only disagreement with Steve is that I think both the far left and the far right are equally susceptible to believing in a JFK conspiracy theory."

Joe, yes, I suspect that too. Although I haven't seen any polling data on the question. Has there been any polling on the ideological makeup of JFK conspiracy believers? I'm not aware of it.

Ok. No real disagreement between us. Just my misunderstanding of your position. My mistake.

I have often thought it would be interesting to have a poll to see how strong the correlation is between JFK conspiracy beliefs and other conspiracy beliefs. But I suspect a CTer may smell a rat and claim to be a LNer who supports various conspiracy theories. In any case, I know of no such poll either.

There is what political scientists call a "horseshoe theory" where the far political left and far political right, instead of being polar opposites, tend to merge or agree on critical matters. There's a populist far left and a populist far right - think of Bernie Sanders' supporters and Trump supporters - that both believe the government has been stolen, that rich and powerful elites run too much of it. They obviously disagree on who these people are and their purpose behind this control. But both agree there is this cabal that runs things. I think it's this type of thinking that leads to a believe in a JFK conspiracy. That JFK was a threat to this cabal and it was for that that he was silenced.

Part of the problem for us with this view is I'm very confident that the majority of people in many other countries also believe there was a conspiracy behind the assassination. I've seen a poll of people in the UK (can't recall the date) that showed 65% believe there was one. So the far left/far right grouping in the US has to take into account this fact. That is, it's not just the "extremes" that believe this. Although that might be true in other countries too. That is, far left and far right people in the UK or France or Japan (whatever) are more likely to believe in a JFK conspiracy.

Back to Jerry Organ's illogical argument: He says that "Many LNers" watch Fox and Breitbart and have been manipulated into believing government conspiracies. But they don't believe in a 9/11 conspiracy. Or the JFK conspiracy either. That makes no sense to me. If they've been brainwashed into embracing government conspiracy theories then why do they reject the two most famous alleged conspiracies in modern US history?: JFK's death and 9/11/.

Yes. Jerry Organ make various claims about “Many LNers”. But I wish he would give us ten names. Or at least one name. Of a LNer who believes in some Large-Secret-Enduring Conspiracy Theory. Not just the name of some Trump supporter but a LNer who supports the Stolen-2020-Election, QAnon, Sandy Hook or some other conspiracy theory. I suspect there must exist some LNer who fits the bill. I’m just skeptical that such LNers are common.