Users Currently Browsing This Topic:
0 Members

Author Topic: Do JFKA CT's also believe that 9/11 was a U.S. Government conspiracy?  (Read 5145 times)

Offline Jerry Organ

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2414
Re: Do JFKA CT's also believe that 9/11 was a U.S. Government conspiracy?
« Reply #16 on: August 30, 2021, 04:35:13 AM »
Advertisement
First of all, I’m looking for LNers who believe in the Large-Secret-Enduring Conspiracy Theory that the 2020 election was stolen from Trump. Not merely LNers who support Trump. We have at least one Trump supporter here who is a LNer. But I know of no LNer who believes in the “Stolen Election” Conspiracy theory.

So, you seem to imply that there are some LNers who believe in the “Stolen Election” Conspiracy theory.

I don't think I implied that. That's a pretty high bar.

Quote
Perhaps there are, but I do not know of any. So, echoing Lindsay Graham, I say “Give my ten names.” Or at least give me one.

Question: What famous LNer believes in the “Stolen Election” Conspiracy theory?

Question: What non-famous LNer, maybe someone with this forum”, who believes in the “Stolen Election” Conspiracy theory?


You'll have to show me where I was bringing that up.

Quote
I never claimed that if a person believes in one conspiracy theory they believe in them all.

Where did I say you did?

Quote
Instead I make the much narrower claim that if one believes in one conspiracy theory, one is more likely to believe in others.

So, I expect that there is a higher percentage of CTers who believe in the “2020 Stolen Election” conspiracy theory than among LNers. And the same would be true for the QAnon, Sandy Hook, 911, Fake-Moon-Landing and other conspiracy theories. A lower percentage of LNers would believe in them than the CTers.

Your opinion is noted. I didn't compared CTs and LNers.

Quote
Again, if I am wrong, give me ten names. Or at least give me one.

I don’t know if these statements apply to me but no, I don’t think the right wingers are immune to conspiracy theories. I think the far left and the far right are both equally susceptible to anti-democratic conspiracy theories. Theories that, if true, tell us that our democracy is a sham. Conspiracy Theories like JFK, 911, Stolen-2020-Election. Naturally, these theories are equally attractive to those who do not believe in democracy, which includes both the far left and the far right.

Nice that you're making this about yourself.

JFK Assassination Forum

Re: Do JFKA CT's also believe that 9/11 was a U.S. Government conspiracy?
« Reply #16 on: August 30, 2021, 04:35:13 AM »


Offline Tom Scully

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1216
Re: Do JFKA CT's also believe that 9/11 was a U.S. Government conspiracy?
« Reply #17 on: August 30, 2021, 03:34:35 PM »
We were told that WTC-7 housed the NYC "command center" and fuel storage for back up generators providing uninterruptible power to that failsafe facility and that 47 stories tall, WTC-7 likely collapsed spontaneously around 5:00 PM on 9/11, although it had not been struck by an airliner, due to the intense heat generated by the petroleum storage tanks, and blah, blah, blah.

NIST, the investigating federal agency, early on made the decision not to increase investigative staff despite the fact the collapse of WTC-7 was unprecedented and building code revisions for future steel framed towers depended on pinpointing the cause of the WTC-7 collapse.

I followed the investigation's progress and information releases for, more than 7 years. In the meantime, towers continued to be designed and built without the input of NIST's WTC-7 investigative results!

NIST Releases Final WTC 7 Investigation Report
https://www.nist.gov/news-events/news/2008/11/nist-releases-final-wtc-7-investigation-report
Nov 25, 2008 — The National Institute of Standards and Technology (NIST) last week released its final report on the Sept. 11, 2001, collapse of the ...

Ordinary Heroes: A Memoir Of 9/11 - Page 220 - t
Link: https://books.google.com › books
Joseph Pfeifer · 2021 · ‎Biography & Autobiography
In 2008 , NIST finished its investigation of WTC - 7 , the forty ... Fueled by ordinary office furnishings , the fire quickly spread to numerous floors .





Former director Mueller and every presidential administration since GW Bush has protected the Saudis instead of opting to make a full disclosure to the American people. Mueller inaccurately stated there was no paper trail and no use of electronic devices like computers by the hijackers.:

https://chicagotribune.com/cached
FBI says hijackers `left no paper trail'
Eric Lichtblau and Josh Meyer. Special to the Tribune. Eric Lichtblau and Josh Meyer are staff writers for the Los Angeles Times, a Tribune newspaper
CHICAGO TRIBUNE - May 1, 2002
 
For more than seven months, U.S. authorities probing the Sept. 11 attacks have scoured everything from caves to credit cards hoping to discover how the 19 hijackers plotted their brazen scheme.

The global search has produced virtually nothing, and authorities concede they may never know many key details of the terrorists' plans.

That sobering conclusion underscores the sophistication of Al Qaeda in concealing its activities. It also shows the daunting difficulties that authorities face in thwarting another attack, officials said.

The hijackers "left no paper trail," FBI Director Robert Mueller said in the text of an April 19 speech the FBI released Monday.

"In our investigation, we have not uncovered a single piece of paper--either here in the United States or in the treasure trove of information that has turned up in Afghanistan and elsewhere--that mentioned any aspect of the Sept. 11 plot," he said.

Meanwhile, U.S. officials told The Associated Press that investigators no longer believe suicide hijacker Mohamed Atta met with an Iraqi intelligence agent in Prague last spring, erasing the only reported link between Saddam Hussein's regime and the attacks.

Mueller's remarks offer the FBI's most detailed assessment to date of its investigation. He said that investigators believe the Sept. 11 plan may have been in the works for as long as five years, and that the hijackers used "meticulous planning, extraordinary secrecy and extensive knowledge of how America works" to conceal their scheme
after entering the U.S. legally from the Middle East.

Investigators have found no computers, laptops, hard drives or other storage media that may have been used by the hijackers, who hid their communications by using hundreds of different pay phones and cell phones, coupled with hard-to-trace prepaid calling cards.

In executing wire transfers to fund the attacks, they were careful to send money in small amounts, avoiding large transactions that would have triggered a government report, Mueller said.

"The hijackers did all they could to stay below our radar," he observed.

The FBI and other U.S. intelligence agencies have come under scrutiny since Sept. 11, and some analysts suggested Mueller's comments, made in a speech in San Francisco , may be an attempt to rationalize the intelligence community's failure to detect signs of an imminent attack.

Law-enforcement officials say they have been able to reconstruct the movements of the hijackers in the months before the attacks--all legal except for a few speeding tickets.

"We have been able to glean quite a bit in tracking their movements, but as far as being able to identify . . . some type of master plan that was shared with a number of people outlining just how they were going to pull this off, that's something we've not been able to uncover," an FBI official said.

The paucity of information "confirms what we have thought for a long time: If there was any doubt about the professionalism of the hijackers, the FBI director's quotes should dispel that," a White House official said.

"If it took . . . years to develop the 9/11 plot, then it is very possible that we are in a similar period right now, where individuals are practicing the same type of operational security in preparation for another attack."

Mueller's assessment of the plot "deepens the sense that these guys [in Al Qaeda] have really taken a quantum leap in their ability to carry out an operation without all the traditional accouterments," said terrorism expert Daniel Benjamin, a former National Security Council aide."


https://www.nytimes.com/2020/01/23/magazine/9-11-saudi-arabia-fbi.html
The Saudi Connection: Inside the 9/11 Case That Divided the F.B.I.
A small team of agents spent years investigating whether one of Washington’s closest allies was involved in the worst terror attack in U.S. history. This is their story.
January 23, 2020

:The full story of the F.B.I.’s investigation into Saudi links to the 9/11 attacks has remained largely untold. Even the code name of the case — Operation Encore — has never been published before. This account is based on interviews with more than 50 current and former investigators, intelligence officials and witnesses in the case. It also draws on some previously secret documents as well as on the voluminous public files of the bipartisan 9/11 Commission.

The Encore investigation exposed a bitter rift within the bureau over the Saudi connection. It illuminated a series of missed opportunities to resolve questions about links between one of Washington’s closest allies and the deadliest attack in the nation’s history. Richard Lambert, who led the F.B.I.’s initial 9/11 investigation in San Diego, as the assistant special agent in charge there, says he believes that even if the F.B.I.’s evidence of possible Saudi involvement in the case is not conclusive, it is significant enough that it should be fully disclosed. “The circumstantial evidence has mounted,” he says. “Given the lapse of time, I don’t know any reason why the truth should be kept from the American people.”..."
« Last Edit: August 30, 2021, 04:28:48 PM by Tom Scully »

Offline Tom Scully

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1216
Re: Do JFKA CT's also believe that 9/11 was a U.S. Government conspiracy?
« Reply #18 on: August 30, 2021, 05:19:51 PM »
This NIST (National Institute of Science and Technology) report based on interviews, is dated three years
before NIST released its final report on the unprecedented collapse of WTC-7 from "ordinary office contents fueled fire."

It is a big .pdg file, nearly 300 pages!
https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/GOVPUB-C13-af8729e24077b212ca94e087541b42d8/pdf/GOVPUB-C13-af8729e24077b212ca94e087541b42d8.pdf





Two things stand out to me. The 2008 NIST final report states water to fight the fire in WTC-7 or to pressurize the building's sprinkler system was unavailable, yet in 2005 two functioning fire boats capable of pumping high volumes of water from the Hudson river were nearby.

The second is that by noon there was concern of imminent collapse of WTC-7.... why, if collapse would be an unprecedented incident? Since collapse potential was unprecedented and most floors were not involved in fire, including the uppermost 17 floors when the decision was made to do nothing, why was not every effort made to connect one of the fire boat's output to a sidewalk level standpoint resulting in pressurizing the building's sprinkler system?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/7_World_Trade_Center
"...On September 11, 2001, the structure was substantially damaged by debris when the nearby North Tower of the World Trade Center collapsed. The debris ignited fires on multiple lower floors of the building, which continued to burn uncontrolled throughout the afternoon. The building's internal fire suppression system lacked water pressure to fight the fires. The collapse began when a critical internal column buckled and triggered cascading failure of nearby columns throughout, which was first visible from the exterior with the crumbling of a rooftop penthouse structure at 5:20:33 pm. This initiated progressive collapse of the entire building at 5:21:10 pm, according to FEMA,[5]:23 while the 2008 NIST study placed the final collapse time at 5:20:52 pm.[6]:19, 21, 50–51 The collapse made the old 7 World Trade Center the first steel skyscraper known to have collapsed primarily due to uncontrolled fires.[7][8]

...After the World Trade Center bombings of February 26, 1993, New York City mayor Rudy Giuliani decided to situate the emergency command center and associated fuel tanks at 7 World Trade Center. Although this decision was criticized in light of the events of 9/11, the fuel in the building is today not believed to have contributed to the collapse of the building.[19][20]:2..."

« Last Edit: September 01, 2021, 01:36:16 PM by Tom Scully »

JFK Assassination Forum

Re: Do JFKA CT's also believe that 9/11 was a U.S. Government conspiracy?
« Reply #18 on: August 30, 2021, 05:19:51 PM »


Online Richard Smith

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5282
Re: Do JFKA CT's also believe that 9/11 was a U.S. Government conspiracy?
« Reply #19 on: August 30, 2021, 05:25:21 PM »
"My only disagreement with Steve is that I think both the far left and the far right are equally susceptible to believing in a JFK conspiracy theory."

Joe, yes, I suspect that too. Although I haven't seen any polling data on the question. Has there been any polling on the ideological makeup of JFK conspiracy believers? I'm not aware of it.

There is what political scientists call a "horseshoe theory" where the far political left and far political right, instead of being polar opposites, tend to merge or agree on critical matters. There's a populist far left and a populist far right - think of Bernie Sanders' supporters and Trump supporters - that both believe the government has been stolen, that rich and powerful elites run too much of it. They obviously disagree on who these people are and their purpose behind this control. But both agree there is this cabal that runs things. I think it's this type of thinking that leads to a believe in a JFK conspiracy. That JFK was a threat to this cabal and it was for that that he was silenced.

Part of the problem for us with this view is I'm very confident that the majority of people in many other countries also believe there was a conspiracy behind the assassination. I've seen a poll of people in the UK (can't recall the date) that showed 65% believe there was one. So the far left/far right grouping in the US has to take into account this fact. That is, it's not just the "extremes" that believe this. Although that might be true in other countries too. That is, far left and far right people in the UK or France or Japan (whatever) are more likely to believe in a JFK conspiracy.

Back to Jerry Organ's illogical argument: He says that "Many LNers" watch Fox and Breitbart and have been manipulated into believing government conspiracies. But they don't believe in a 9/11 conspiracy. Or the JFK conspiracy either. That makes no sense to me. If they've been brainwashed into embracing government conspiracy theories then why do they reject the two most famous alleged conspiracies in modern US history?: JFK's death and 9/11/.

All the more ironic is that perhaps the biggest and most outlandish conspiracy theory in modern history - surpassing even the JFK conspiracies and 9/11 - is the fake Russian collusion conspiracy theory touted by leftists for years.  A wild conspiracy theory that suggested that the President of the United States was an agent of Russia or under some form of blackmail to do Russia's binding.  But others are the conspiracy theorists.  The hypocrisy is astounding. 

Offline Zeon Mason

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 990
Re: Do JFKA CT's also believe that 9/11 was a U.S. Government conspiracy?
« Reply #20 on: August 31, 2021, 05:55:49 AM »
Strangely, I agree with Spike Lee about something :)

JFK Assassination Forum

Re: Do JFKA CT's also believe that 9/11 was a U.S. Government conspiracy?
« Reply #20 on: August 31, 2021, 05:55:49 AM »


Offline Mark A. Oblazney

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 455
Re: Do JFKA CT's also believe that 9/11 was a U.S. Government conspiracy?
« Reply #21 on: August 31, 2021, 09:49:46 AM »
This NIST (National Institute of Science and Technology) report based on interviews, is dated three years
before NIST released its final report on the unprecedented collapse of WTC-7 from "ordinary office contents fueled fire."

It is a big .pdg file, nearly 300 pages!
https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/GOVPUB-C13-af8729e24077b212ca94e087541b42d8/pdf/GOVPUB-C13-af8729e24077b212ca94e087541b42d8.pdf





Two things stand out to me. The 2008 NIST final report states water to fight the fire in WTC-7 or to pressurize the building's sprinkler system was unavailable, yet in 2005 two functioning fire boats capable of pumping high volumes of water from the Hudson river were nearby.

The second is that by noon there was concern of imminent collapse of WTC-7.... why, if collapse would be an unprecedented incident? Since collapse potential was unprecedented and most floors were not involved in fire, including the uppermost 17 floors when the decision was made to do nothing, why was not every effort made to connect one of the fire boat's output to a sidewalk level standpoint resulting in pressurizing the building's sprinkler system?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/7_World_Trade_Center
"...On September 11, 2001, the structure was substantially damaged by debris when the nearby North Tower of the World Trade Center collapsed. The debris ignited fires on multiple lower floors of the building, which continued to burn uncontrolled throughout the afternoon. The building's internal fire suppression system lacked water pressure to fight the fires. The collapse began when a critical internal column buckled and triggered cascading failure of nearby columns throughout, which was first visible from the exterior with the crumbling of a rooftop penthouse structure at 5:20:33 pm. This initiated progressive collapse of the entire building at 5:21:10 pm, according to FEMA,[5]:23 while the 2008 NIST study placed the final collapse time at 5:20:52 pm.[6]:19, 21, 50–51 The collapse made the old 7 World Trade Center the first steel skyscraper known to have collapsed primarily due to uncontrolled fires.[7][8]

...After the World Trade Center bombings of February 26, 1993, New York City mayor Rudy Giuliani decided to situate the emergency command center and associated fuel tanks at 7 World Trade Center. Although this decision was criticized in light of the events of 9/11, the fuel in the building is today not believed to have contributed to the collapse of the building.[19][20]:2..."



300 pages?  That's a lot of reading.  Thanks for posting, Tom.

JFK Assassination Forum

Re: Do JFKA CT's also believe that 9/11 was a U.S. Government conspiracy?
« Reply #21 on: August 31, 2021, 09:49:46 AM »