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Author Topic: Did Hickey fire the fatal shot?  (Read 17030 times)

Online Marjan Rynkiewicz

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Re: Did Hickey fire the fatal shot?
« Reply #80 on: September 17, 2021, 12:51:04 AM »
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Here is my posting from my thread earlier this year. https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,2833.30.html
Except that back then i had the order wrong -- the headshot was the last not the first.

Hickey's Colt Armalite AR15 01 we now know didn’t have a BURST mode, it had an AUTO mode. 
And we can be fairly certain that Hickey accidentally fired an auto burst of at least 4 shots, probably 5, possibly 6.
Here is my latest effort re a possible arc for a 6-shot burst.
The first shot is the JFK headshot.  The remnant slug exits & cracks the windshield where shown just left of the mirror.
Shot-2 puts a dent in the chrome trim above & right of the mirror. Fragments dent the back of the mirror.
Shot-3 hits the tarmac of Elm St.
Shot-4 hits the concrete curb.
Shot-5 hits grass.
Shot-6 hits the tarmac of Main St & ricochets onto the curb 23'4" from the pier, near Tague.
Tague's left cheek is stung & bloodied by a fragment of lead from Shot-3 or 4 or 6.
The 52 grain deformed remnant of the 55 grain slug from shot-6 or 4 or 3 is found buried on top of the triple underpass by Lester using a detector in 1974.
This freeze frame from Dale Myers' cartoon footage does not show accurately Hickey's view from Queen Mary (i should say the AR15's view), but it will have to do.
[edit][as explained in my thread Bronson Saw Hickey Shoot JFK the Bronson film frame B09 is at Zapruder Z319 & B09 shows Hickey sitting high up in his seat holding the AR15 up at 50 deg, & we know that the JFK headshot was at Z313, hence if Hickey had a 6 shot burst then shot-6 had to be the headshot & shot-5 had to dent the chrome trim etc & shot-1 or one of the other shots wounded Tague, hence the above shot numbers have to be reversed.]
« Last Edit: April 17, 2022, 01:57:44 AM by Marjan Rynkiewicz »

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Re: Did Hickey fire the fatal shot?
« Reply #80 on: September 17, 2021, 12:51:04 AM »


Online Marjan Rynkiewicz

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Re: Did Hickey fire the fatal shot?
« Reply #81 on: September 17, 2021, 01:11:14 AM »
The Agents on Queen Mary have just seen a chunk of JFK's head blown off.
The motorcade has now passed the underpass & is heading for the hospital.
What are the agents on the runningboard of Queen Mary doing?  Are they….
(1).  Scanning the surrounds for conspirators.
(2).  Scanning back to the top of the underpass for conspirators.
(3).  Looking up the road ahead for danger.
(4).  Looking to see if agent Hill is safely in JFK's limo.
(5).  Trying to get a look at JFK & Jackie.
(6).  Looking at agent Hickey & saying WTF.
Make up your own mind.


It was rotten luck, he was just doing his job.

Offline Jerry Freeman

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Re: Did Hickey fire the fatal shot?
« Reply #82 on: September 17, 2021, 03:12:44 AM »
The Agents on Queen Mary have just seen a chunk of JFK's head blown off.
The motorcade has now passed the underpass & is heading for the hospital.
What are the agents on the runningboard of Queen Mary doing?  Are they….
(1).....(6) 
Make up your own mind.
I have. (7) They are hanging on to that car for dear life as it speeds to that hospital at 75+ MPH 

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Re: Did Hickey fire the fatal shot?
« Reply #82 on: September 17, 2021, 03:12:44 AM »


Online Marjan Rynkiewicz

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Re: Did Hickey fire the fatal shot?
« Reply #83 on: September 17, 2021, 03:43:16 AM »
I have. (7) They are hanging on to that car for dear life as it speeds to that hospital at 75+ MPH
The 2 on the running boards are looking back at Hickey.


Columbo:  There are a couple of loose ends I'd like to tie up, sir. Nothing important you understand.  Actually, so far, sir, we don’t have a thing.
Hickey:  Well, that’s heartening.
Columbo:  Officially, that is.
Hickey:  And unofficially?
Columbo:  Unofficially, we don’t have anything either.
Hickey:  So, when did you first suspect me?
Columbo: As it happens, sir… the first time i read the report.
Hickey: That can’t be possible.
Columbo:  Well sir, little things bother me.  Like when i was looking for the tests done on your AR15, & the bullets.  Especially your sworn witness testimony, sir.
Hickey:  There were no tests, & i wasn’t called as a witness.
Columbo:  Yes, that's what i mean sir.  It's just one of those things that got in my head and kept rolling around in there like a marble
Columbo:  My wife was a great fan of JFK sir.
Hickey:  Well, tell her it was just rotten luck.
Columbo:  Yes sir, u were just doing your job.

Online Marjan Rynkiewicz

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Re: Did Hickey fire the fatal shot?
« Reply #84 on: September 17, 2021, 04:02:20 AM »
FRIDAY, DECEMBER 16, 2011
The Accidental Death of John F. Kennedy
http://johnshaplin.blogspot.com/2011/12/accidental-death-of-john-f-kennedy.html

Howard Donahue was a Baltimore ballistics expert who became involved in the JFK investigation when he was called by CBS in the spring of 1967. CBS had constructed a mockup of Dealey Plaza, complete with a little track which pulled a moving target repeatedly through the “Plaza” at 11 miles per hour. CBS was trying to see whether they could find anybody who could hit the target three times in 5.6 seconds. Donahue fired three shots into a three inch circles in 5.2 seconds – and became fascinated with the weapons-and-ballistics aspects of the assassination.

Donahue’s theory, developed over the following twenty years, is that Lee Harvey Oswald did in fact fire two shots at the President that warm November afternoon, with or without the assistance of a vast array of unknown conspirators. He missed with the first shot, although a fragment ricocheted up and hit the President in the neck. His second shot hit Kennedy and Governor John Connally, and his weapon jammed when he attempted a third shot. Unfortunately, a Secret Service man, George Hickey, grabbed a weapon and jumped when he heard the first shot. Hickey’s weapon accidentally fired, and that bullet, from Hickey’s gun, mortally wounded the President.

On first hearing this theory, almost no one believes it could be right. It sounds like just another helium balloon by someone who watched too many Mission: Impossible re-runs as a child. But I have read Donahue’s book Mortal Error carefully, and I have to tell you, if there is a flaw in his argument, I don’t see it.

Donahue is a ballistics expert who has testified in many criminal cases in that role. His ballistics argument include:

1.) The trajectory of the fatal bullet, plotted very carefully based on the entrance and “exit” wounds and the position of Kennedy’s head at the moment, traces a line behind Kennedy, and directly back to the Secret Service care which was following at a distance of about five feet.

2.) The bullet which hit Kennedy in the head disintegrated after impact, which a bullet fired from Oswald’s rifle would not have done, but a bullet fired from an AR-15, carried by Hinkey, would have. “The Carcano round (Oswald’s round) simply did not have the velocity – either rotational, from the rifling of the barrel – or linear, from the gunpowder charge in the skull – to completely shred the thick metal jacket and disintegrate the lead inside upon impact… the startling fact was that the bullet that hit Kennedy’s head ha not behaved like a full metal jacket at all.”

3.) A Carcano round, fired at the distance between Kennedy and Oswald at the moment of the fatal shot (believed to be 261 feet), could not have transmitted as much energy as the fatal round obviously did,.

4.) A .223 bullet, as fired from an AR-15 (Hickey’s gun), creates a little ‘lead snowstorm” in its target, as some of the lead actually melts on impact, then cools again in the tissue. A Carcano round has no similar effect. According to Donahue, exactly such an effect was described to him by Dr. Russell Fisher, a member of the pathologists panel which reviewed the autopsy results in 1968. (The President’s brain disappeared from the national archives shortly after that, making it impossible to confirm this allegation.

5.) The bullet fired by an AR-15 is 5.56 millimeters in diameter. A Carcano round is 6.5 millimeters. The entrance wound in the back of the President’s head was only six millimeters wide – making it seemingly impossible to put a 6.5 millimeter round through the hole.

Donahue’s material is stupefyingly dense but the situation is not as complicated as the language in which it musty be stated. If you can wade through the math until you get an intuitive feel for what the argument is about, you can figure things out. Let’s start with the fact that the fatal shot “entered the rear of the President’s skull and exploded out the right side of his head.” But Oswald was positioned to the right rear of Kennedy, behind him and to the right. That should mean that a shot from Oswald should have exited the left side of Kennedy’s head. Put the book down, take your fingers and point; you’ll see what I mean.

Not only that, but Oswald was way up in the air. The Warren Commission reported that the fatal shot was fired at a downward angle of 16 degrees. But, also according to the Warren report, the fatal bullet, as it exited, blew a hole in Kennedy’s skull; about two inches from the top of his head- above the hairline. A descending bullet should have created and exit wound through Kennedy’s face, about the height of his nose- not through his skull.

The Warren report defenders avoid this quandary by supposing that Kennedy’s head, at the moment of impact, is turned sharply to the left (25 degrees) and tilted sharply forward (40 degrees). Kennedy’s head was turned to the left and tilted forward at the moment of impact- but not nearly enough to explain the anomalous location of the exit wound…On the other hand, the exit wound is exactly where it should be if the fatal bullet was in fact fired from Agent Hickey’s weapon.

Let us deal with the circumstantial observations of the critical seconds:

1) Secret Service agent George Hickey carried an AR-15, which is the civilian version of the M-16, the rifle used by U.S. military ground troops in the Vietnam era. Numerous eyewitness reports state that Hickey had grabbed this weapon and was waving it around within seconds of the first shot.

2) One eyewitness, S.M. Holland, told the Warren Commission interviewer that “just about the same time the President was shot the second time, he (Hickey) jumped up in the seat and was standing up…now I actually thought when they started up, I actually though he was shot, too, because he fell backwards just like he was shot, but it jerked him down when they started off.” Holland also observed that agent Hickey had his weapon in his hands at the moment.

3) Special agent Winston Lawson was in the first car of the motorcade, the car ahead of Kennedy’s on that day. His job was to look steadily backward at the President. Maintaining constant visual contact. In his statement written December 1, 1963, agent Wilson wrote that:
“As the Lead Car was passing under this bridge I heard the first loud, sharp report and in more rapid succession two more sounds like gunfire. I could see persons to the left of the motorcade vehicles running away. I noticed agent Hickey standing in the follow-up car with the automatic weapon and first thought he had fired at someone.”

4) Secret Service Agent Glenn Bennett, seated next top Hickey in the follow-up car, says that when the second shot hit Kennedy he yelled “He’s hit” and reached for the A-15 on the floor of the vehicle- only to realize agent Hickey already had it. Secret Service Agent Emory Roberts, who was in charge of the agents in the follow-up car, reported that just after the shooting he turned and saw Hickey with the rifle, and said “Be careful with that.”

5) While the sound reports from the scene are confusing, many ear-witnesses that that one or more shots had originated from near the President. Austin Miller, watching from the overpass, thought that the shots had come “
from right there in the car.” Royce Skelton, also watching from the overpass, said that he thought the shots came “from around the President’s car.” Mary Elizabeth Woodward, standing just in front of the grassy knoll, described the third shot as “
a horrible ear-shattering noise.”

6) Several individuals who were part of the resident’s motorcade reported smelling gunpowder. Mrs. Earle Cabell, wife of the mayor of Dallas, was riding in an open convertible, four cars behind the death car. She saw the barrel of the rifle projecting through the open window, and immediately after that reported smelling gunpowder. Other people riding in the motorcade also reported the smell of gunpowder, including Tom Dillard, a journalist who was riding in an open car about a block behind the President, and Senator Ralph Yarborough, who was in the care immediately behind Agent Hickey’s

If in fact the only shots fired that afternoon were from Oswald’s rifle, sic stories in the air and inside a building, I have a very difficult time understanding why numerous eyewitnesses would smell gunpowder at ground level and in the path of the presidential limousine.


From there on, what we have in support of the Donahue thesis is a series of after-the-fact observations, culled by Donahue from dozens of Kennedy books.

1) Jim Bishop, in The Day Kennedy Was Shot, reported that Secret Service agent Clint Hill phoned the White House from the hospital. “There’s been an accident,” he reported, apparently overheard by the reporter.

2) According to LBJ: The Way He Was by Frank Cormier, Lyndon Johnson hated to have the Secret Service agents tailgating him, and once, on a hunting trip, threatened to shoot out their tires if they didn’t keep a safe distance. Another time, Johnson told Cormier that “If I ever get killed, it won’t be because of an assassin. It’ll be some Secret Service agent who trips himself up and his gun goes off. They’re worse than trigger-happy Texas sheriffs.”

Donahue’s theory is that nobody intended to kill the President, other than Oswald; it was an accident. It was an accident which happened to occur in such a manner that it was very unclear, to the persons on the scene, what had happened or what was happening. Once this terrible accident had occurred, very few people would have to have knowledge of what was going on. It is quite possible that Agent Hickey himself did not realize what had happened.

And those few people who did, faced with a fait accompli, have a powerful incentive to keep quiet about it. Look at what happens if they talk:

1). Agent Hickey’s life is destroyed

2). All of the agents involved are professionally destroyed.

3).The Secret Service, a government agency with an annual budget of many millions of dollars, is seriously compromised.

There have been other incidents of men being accidentally killed by their bodyguards- indeed, a book argues that this is what happened to the Kingfish, Huey Long. Ross Perot argued during the 1992 presidential campaign that the Secret Service was a vast waste of money, that it was used for political purposes, that it was used to disguise perquisites of office, and that it should be disbanded. There is much truth to this argument; certainly no journalist close to the President would deny that the Secret Service is routinely use to enable the President to “stage” events.

If, in addition to these abuses, it became known that the Secret Service had accidentally shot President Kennedy, do you think the public would still be willing to shell out millions for this “protection”? I’m not an investigative reporter; I’m just a guy who reads a lot of crime books. To me, Mortal Error remains the most persuasive account of the tragedy in Dallas.

Popular Crime; Reflections on the Celebration of Violence by Bill James; Scribner. 2011
POSTED BY JOHNSHAPLIN AT 3:24 PM

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Re: Did Hickey fire the fatal shot?
« Reply #84 on: September 17, 2021, 04:02:20 AM »


Online Marjan Rynkiewicz

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Re: Did Hickey fire the fatal shot?
« Reply #85 on: September 17, 2021, 04:08:23 AM »
https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,2836.msg111420.html#msg111420
Here is a giff of Queen Mary in my 19 Bronson frames.
Z313 is at about B04 (it aint at the usually trumpeted B09).
These are from Robin Unger's 2017 copies.
The Sixth Floor Museum wont make the superior 2019 frames public.


After the 19 Bronson frames we get Queen Mary in my 37 Nix frames (starting with N34 ending with N70). I dont know how much time there is tween B19 & N34.


Here is Robin Unger's Muchmore giff.
It fits somewhere tween the Bronson giff & the Nix giff. I dont know exactly where.
It doesnt show much of Queen Mary & it shows zero of Ready & Co, but it does show driver Kinney looking hard right.


Online Marjan Rynkiewicz

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Re: Did Hickey fire the fatal shot?
« Reply #86 on: September 17, 2021, 04:13:25 AM »
FROM MY EARLIER BRONSON THREAD.
I noticed something new today.  The Muchmore film is shown in the first 31 frames of the 120 frames in the Muchmore folder in Robin Unger's gallery on this website.  From frame M001 to M028 u can see the hood of Queen Mary.  At frames M029 M030 M031 u can see the driver Kinney.  He is starting to look to his right, & at frame M031 he has turned right as far as is possible without turning his body.  Unfortunately frame M031 is the last.   

What does the Nix film show?  Unfortunately frame M031 corresponds to i think Nix frame N232, & the lady with the tan coat blocks our view of Hickey in frames N231 N232 N233, & partly blocks Kinney in frames N230 N234.  But we can see that in earlier Nix frames & in later Nix frames Kinney is looking directly ahead towards the JFK limo.  The fatal shot is i think at N209, ie 23 Nix frames before Kinney's head turn at N232, ie a little over 1 second.

So, Kinney, who is keeping Queen Mary 6 ft behind the JFK limo, finds an urgent need to have a quick look to his right or rear.  Why?  Was it because Agent Ready has jumped off the running board & Agent Roberts is telling Ready to come back?  I don’t think so.  Kinney could see all of that action by just half turning to his right.  And Ready's jumping & unjumping is surely not as critical as the need to avoid squashing Agent Hill tween Queen Mary & the JFK limo.

Did Kinney turn his head hard right to get a look at Agent Landis jumping off the running board?  Landis did jump off, however i have never seen it mentioned.  Landis was standing next to the jump seats.  No, i don’t think that that was the reason.

Did Kinney turn his head hard right because Agent Hickey had fired his AR15 past Kinney's right earhole at frame M009 N209 B09 Z313?
Yes, the AR15 firing a shot (i reckon 3 shots)[today i reckon 4 or 5 or 6 shots](an auto burst) past Kinney's right earhole would surely do the trick.  Kinney's head turn was probably a voluntary action, rather than non-voluntary, say 1 second after the shot,  but nonetheless it was fairly automatic & non-avoidable i reckon. 

What does the Bronson film tell us about Kinney's head turn?  Unfortunately the Bronson frames B01 to B20 stop at about Nix  N226, ie 6 Nix frames short of seeing Kinney's head turn at N232.  Bronson was standing on a pedestal, ie higher than Nix, hence the lady in the tan coat would not i think have blocked Bronson's view of Kinney's head.  The fatal shot was at B09 or a fraction earlier i think. 

U might remember that some days ago i mentioned the earlier head turn reaction by McIntyre (standing on the rear of the left running board).  He can be seen looking right in Bronson B04 to B09, ie towards Hickey, & we can assume that he is looking at Hickey because he has seen that Hickey has picked up the AR15.  The fatal shot is at about B09.  However unfortunately McIntyre is out of frame in the Muchmore film, hence the Muchmore film can't be used to confirm McIntyre's head turn. 
And McIntyre is out of frame in most of the Nix film.  He is only partly vizible in Nix frames N239 to N248 (we can see his head & the front half of his body).  In thems frames he is looking directly ahead.  Kinney turned his head 7 frames earlier at N232.  The fatal shot was at say N209.

Here is Muchmore M031 of 120, showing Kinney looking right.   And below that we see Nix N233 of 652 showing the lady blocking our view.
In N233 u can see under Queen Mary that Ready & Landis are both standing on the road [edit-- they were not on the road, it was their shadow].



« Last Edit: September 17, 2021, 04:17:38 AM by Marjan Rynkiewicz »

Online Marjan Rynkiewicz

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Re: Did Hickey fire the fatal shot?
« Reply #87 on: September 17, 2021, 04:32:16 AM »
HERE IS WHAT I WROTE IN MY EARLIER BRONSON THREAD.
NOTE McINTYRE'S REACTIONS.

Details of the motorcade can be found in --Presidential Motorcade Schematic Listing – by Todd Wayne Vaughn.
http://jfk.hood.edu/Collection/Weisberg%20Subject%20Index%20Files/M%20Disk/Motorcade%20Route/Item%2015.pdf

We are lucky to have B04 to B18 (B01 to B20 actually).
This is the only footage-photo of what happened in & around Queen Mary at the time of Z313.  All others focused on the JFK limo & incidentally got a small chunk of Queen Mary.  Here is what i see in B04 to B18 ( i later included B01 B02 B03 B19 B20) .............

(1) Kinney (driver).   Can be seen relatively well.  Is looking ahead throughout.
(2) Roberts (sitting next to Kinney).  Hidden by Kinney. We can see the top of his head at times. Reactions not vizible.
(3) O'Donnell (sitting in left jump seat).  Hidden by McIntyre.
(4) Powers (sitting in right jump seat).  Hidden by McIntyre & O'Donnell.

(5) Hickey (semi-standing in left of rear seat).  I will give a detailed description of Hickey's actions later.  We can usually see 2 blurry dark shapes in the rear seat, with blurry mainly dark heads.  Its impossible to tell which is Hickey & which is Bennett.  In some frames the 2 shapes & heads are smudged into oblivion.  In some frames (especially near Z313) 3 spectators standing on the south side of Elm St block our view of Hickey & Bennett (& our view of the others).  The 15 extant frames are jumpy, because they should be 22 frames (7 frames have been skipped by the 3rd rate camera, or are missing).   Our pseudo-footage would play much better & tell us more if we had the benefit of thems extra 7 frames.  After a long time i realized that one reason that its difficult to see what is what & who is who is that Hickey is looking to his right in some frames, & we see the dark back of his blurry head.  This escaped me.  I could see the nice pink sides of Agent's faces fairly clearly in lots of frames, but not so for Hickey & Bennett.  Bennett shows a little bit of pink much of the time (actually its not even pink, its just a small weak pale smudge of a face-patch).  Hickey shows merely a hint of face-patch in a half of the frames, because we see the back of his head mostly.  He has turned his head (to his right), & possibly his body (in which case we can see his back).  More about Hickey later.

(6) Bennett (sitting in the right of the rear seat).  It is fairly certain that Bennett is the one sitting leaning forward (praps he likes to keep his hand on the door-handle), whereas Hickey is in the left seat & is higher & leaning back sitting up on some cases placed on the seat for that purpose.  Bennett's head is much lower than Hickey's head.  Bennett is looking rightish, possibly scanning for long range threats i reckon (eg the picket fence).  If he were looking straight ahead then the sides of his faces should look large & pink like others, but his face-patches look narrow & weak koz we can see the back of his head mostly (but its difficult to tell, being so blurry etc).  I dont think that Bennett ever glances directly at Hickey, but its difficult to tell.  His face-patch is pinkest at B16, i think that he looks towards the commotion in the limo, or is it a late reaction to the sound of Hickey's shot.  Is B16 a head turn reaction to Hickey's shot at B09?  Bennett's head is 100% hidden by the red lady's head in B17, & in B18 his head is smudged & his face isnt detectable, & later when i included B19 i found that B19 had a strange pinkish smudge near where Bennett's face should be, but i couldnt find any clear evidence that the possible head turn reaction in B16 continued after, if i did find such evidence then it would be ok for me to claim that Bennett had a head-turn reaction to Hickey's shot at B09, but no such luck.
 
(7) Hill (standing on the front of the left running board).  Hill can be seen running on the road just ahead of the windshield at B04, & by B18 he is way ahead almost at JFK's limo.  I said "can be seen running" but really its not much better than guesswork, Hill is so blurry.  We can see a suspicion of his face-patch in a few of the frames.  But there is no possibility of seeing whether Hill had any reaction to a shot at B09 (did Hill ever say that he heard the fatal 3rd shot?)(whilst running).

(8 ) McIntyre (standing on the rear of the left running board).  McIntyre can be seen looking right in B04 to B09, ie towards Hickey.  We know that McIntyre is looking right because we can't see the pink of McIntyre's face, we see the dark of the back of his head. 
And we can assume that he is looking at Hickey because he
 has seen that Hickey has picked up the AR15.

Then in B10 we can see the pink of the side of McIntyre's face because McIntyre has now quickly looked towards JFK,
& we can assume that that is because he saw Hickey fire at B09.
After B10 McIntyre continues to look towards JFK. 

(9) Ready (standing on the front of the right running board).  Ready is the clearest & most vizible of everyone in Queen Mary, ordinarily our view of Ready would be blocked by Hill standing on the left running board but Hill has run off.  Ready looks ahead the whole time, & shows no reaction to Hickey's shot.
(10)  Landis (standing on the rear of the right running board).  Our view of Landis is partly blocked by McIntyre in every frame.  In some frames we can see a small part of Landis's face & hair & head.  He might have looked to his left towards Hickey when Hickey picked up the AR15, & he might then have looked towards JFK after the shot, but i don’t think that we can judge any of that because his face is mostly blocked by McIntyre's head.  Bennett is sitting tween Landis & Hickey, & Bennett (leaning forward as always)(as can be seen in photos) has partly blocked Landis's view of Hickey picking up the AR15, hence Landis early on might not even be aware that Hickey has picked up the AR15. Actually silly me i forgot that Landis is standing next to the jump seats not next to the rear seat, hence Landis looking rightish because of the curve is looking awayish from Hickey & hardly likely to notice Hickey with the AR15 & in addition Landis somehow fails to react to the sound of the shot (he should have turned leftish).

Spectators.  There are 4 spectators close to Queen Mary on the southern side of Elm St, & others close on the northern side, & others at various locations, but i can't see any obvious reactions by any spectators to a shot by Hickey in Queen Mary.  Naturally spectators in B04 to B18 would be focused on JFK, especially after JFK's reaction to getting shot by Oswald's shot-2 at Z218 (ie 95 Zapruder frames before Z313-B09), & especially after Hill has taken off on foot.  And Hickey is hidden away in the middle of a ring of Agents.

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Re: Did Hickey fire the fatal shot?
« Reply #87 on: September 17, 2021, 04:32:16 AM »