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Author Topic: The TSBD rollcall that doubtfully happened  (Read 6258 times)

Offline Jerry Freeman

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The TSBD rollcall that doubtfully happened
« on: September 23, 2021, 02:40:08 AM »
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Mr. STERN - Then you got inside the building and what did you do?
Mr. SORRELS - I asked for the manager, and I was directed to Mr. Truly. He was standing there.
I went up and identified myself to him. I said, "I want to get a stenographer, and we would like to have you put down the names and addresses of every employee of the building, in the building."
And I then walked on out the front door and asked, "Did anyone here see anything?"
And someone pointed to Mr. Brennan.
Who was that mysterious someone and how did they know about Brennan?
No biggie.
This subject was introduced recently in the Bus and Cab thread and was really off topic.
Based on this link...  http://www.prayer-man.com/the-roll-call-inside-the-tsbd-never-happened/#lightbox[group]/0/
The only mention of a collection of TSBD names or a roll call of any sort contained in the Warren Report that has been advanced... is that of Secret Service special agent in charge Dallas Tx -Forrest Sorrels.
Other points...What ever happened to this request for a stenographer? It might be noted that Brennan could not positively identify Oswald in a line-up but yet the entire dragnet was based on his supposed description of Lee.
Quote
Mr. STERN - Mr. Sorrels, I would like to turn now to the morning of November 22 and get from you an account of what you observed as a passenger in the motorcade and thereafter.
In what car were you riding in the motorcade?
Mr. SORRELS - I was riding in what we call the lead car, which is the one immediately in front of the President's car.
Mr. STERN - What was your function in the lead car?
Mr. SORRELS - To be there with the special agent who had made the survey, and with the Chief of Police, and to observe the people and buildings as we drove along in the motorcade.
Sorrels was riding in the lead car and the lead car led JFK to the hospital. If he had seen what Brennan said he did...what could he have done about it?
Quote
Mr. STERN - And, at this point, you were not certain that the shots came from the Book Depository?
Mr. SORRELS - No; I didn't know at that time.
Mr. STERN - You just wanted to get to that general area?
Mr. SORRELS - Yes, sir; because I knew that there would be witnesses around there, there would have to be somebody in that vicinity.
And upon arrival at the Book Depository, I went in the back door.
There were people moving around.
I asked, "Where is the manager here?"
Mr. STERN - Just a minute.
How much time do you think elapsed from the time the shots were fired until the time you returned to the Book Depository?
Mr. SORRELS - I don't believe it could have been over about 20 minutes....
Mr. STERN - So you estimate not more than 20 minutes?
Mr. SORRELS - I don't believe it could have been more than 20 or 25 minutes at the very most.
This was six months after that day but the timing was very well rehearsed recalled. Why did Sorrels go to the back door? He said he didn't know where the shots came from until he talked to Brennan but he went to the back door of the building.
Let's say he didn't talk to Truly until about 1:00...How long would it have taken to compile this employee muster and bear in mind that there were other businesses besides the school book people......
Quote
Mr Sorrels - So I just waited there until Captain Fritz opened the door, and he had a man who I later found out to be Oswald in custody at the time.
 I was informed that an FBI agent had called the office and said that Captain Fritz of the Homicide Bureau had been trying to get in touch with me, that he had a suspect in custody.
Mr. STERN - About what time was that?
Mr. SORRELS - That would be fairly close to 2 o'clock, I imagine.

Would have had to been quite some minutes after 2 as Lee was getting packed into a car around 2 PM [I imagine] Also, it seems that Sorrels got around about as lightning fast as did W R Westbrook and Hugh Aynesworth that day.
Quote
Mr Sorrels -And I told Captain Fritz, I said, "Captain, I would like to talk to this man when I have an opportunity."
He said, "You can talk to him right now.".......
And I started talking to Oswald, started asking him some questions, and he was arrogant and a belligerent attitude about him.
Of course he was belligerent...Oswald was a cold blooded murderer---But wait a second---Sorrels never mentioned that he had asked or even tried to find out just exactly what it was that Oswald was charged with? I guess Lee just looked like a cop killer and Sorrels got wise ::)
Quote
Mr Sorrels....And I think I asked him whether or not he had ever been in a foreign country and he said that he had traveled in Europe, but more time had been spent in the Soviet Union, as I recall it.
And then he just said "I don't care to answer any more questions."
And so the conversation was terminated.
Mr. STERN - Did he give you his address?
Mr. SORRELS - As I recall it, he did give me an address. I don't remember what it was offhand.
Yeah where were those damn stenographers? And what prompted Sorrels to ask Lee about his travels? He had just met him.

 
William Shelley [for some reason]"started checking around" MISSES Lee! Finds Truly and reports.
 
Roy Truly  [for some reason]"started checking around" MISSES Lee! Finds Shelley and reports.
 :D Too rich
There was a list of employees it appears but could not possibly have been compiled before Oswald's arrest. So how come he was first on the list? I do not see a WC Exhibit # on this list. Why the check marks?


Quote
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

I've never been sure whether there was or wasn't an actual "roll call" of the TSBD warehouse employees, but in an interview conducted by Gary Mack in June of 2002, Buell Wesley Frazier said there definitely WAS a roll call of the Depository's warehouse employees shortly after the assassination, with names being READ OFF by someone. Here's what Frazier said in 2002:


BUELL WESLEY FRAZIER -- "Mr. Shelley got us together—he and Mr. Truly—and we had a roll call."

GARY MACK -- "And where did this take place?"

FRAZIER -- "Outside Mr. Shelley's office."

MACK -- "Did they actually read off names? Or did they just ask you guys, 'anybody missing'?"

FRAZIER -- "No, they read names off and you had to answer."

MACK -- "Okay. And who was missing?"

FRAZIER -- "The only person missing was Lee Oswald."
Who was the "someone" who read off the names if the warehouse employees were the only ones there? Why didn't they [Warren Commissioners] ask Wes Frazier who seemed to know? Harold Norman? Roy Truly? Bill Shelley? Charles Givens? Or some other warehouse employee?
 

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The TSBD rollcall that doubtfully happened
« on: September 23, 2021, 02:40:08 AM »


Offline Dan O'meara

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Re: The TSBD rollcall that doubtfully happened
« Reply #1 on: September 23, 2021, 03:45:09 AM »
Who was that mysterious someone and how did they know about Brennan?
No biggie.
This subject was introduced recently in the Bus and Cab thread and was really off topic.
Based on this link...  http://www.prayer-man.com/the-roll-call-inside-the-tsbd-never-happened/#lightbox[group]/0/
The only mention of a collection of TSBD names or a roll call of any sort contained in the Warren Report that has been advanced... is that of Secret Service special agent in charge Dallas Tx -Forrest Sorrels.
Other points...What ever happened to this request for a stenographer? It might be noted that Brennan could not positively identify Oswald in a line-up but yet the entire dragnet was based on his supposed description of Lee. Sorrels was riding in the lead car and the lead car led JFK to the hospital. If he had seen what Brennan said he did...what could he have done about it?This was six months after that day but the timing was very well rehearsed recalled. Why did Sorrels go to the back door? He said he didn't know where the shots came from until he talked to Brennan but he went to the back door of the building.
Let's say he didn't talk to Truly until about 1:00...How long would it have taken to compile this employee muster and bear in mind that there were other businesses besides the school book people......
Would have had to been quite some minutes after 2 as Lee was getting packed into a car around 2 PM [I imagine] Also, it seems that Sorrels got around about as lightning fast as did W R Westbrook and Hugh Aynesworth that day.Of course he was belligerent...Oswald was a cold blooded murderer---But wait a second---Sorrels never mentioned that he had asked or even tried to find out just exactly what it was that Oswald was charged with? I guess Lee just looked like a cop killer and Sorrels got wise ::)Yeah where were those damn stenographers? And what prompted Sorrels to ask Lee about his travels? He had just met him.

 
William Shelley [for some reason]"started checking around" MISSES Lee! Finds Truly and reports.
 
Roy Truly  [for some reason]"started checking around" MISSES Lee! Finds Shelley and reports.
 :D Too rich
There was a list of employees it appears but could not possibly have been compiled before Oswald's arrest. So how come he was first on the list? I do not see a WC Exhibit # on this list. Why the check marks?

Who was the "someone" who read off the names if the warehouse employees were the only ones there? Why didn't they [Warren Commissioners] ask Wes Frazier who seemed to know? Harold Norman? Roy Truly? Bill Shelley? Charles Givens? Or some other warehouse employee?

Trying to pick through this mess of an OP...
First up - Sorrels goes outside the front door and asks if anybody knows what going on and is pointed towards Brennan. It doesn't matter who pointed Brennan out to him (which is a genuinely stupid question), what matters is what time Brennan was stood out front. This would give us a good idea what time Sorrels actually got there and what time he asked Truly to get the names together.
Second point - The "someone" in Frazier's account of the roll call must've been Truly (doing what Sorrels asked him to do)

in the footage below can we see Brennan in the right hand image when the cop with the white cap moves up the steps at a time when Williams, Lovelady and Danny Arce are stood outside the building?

« Last Edit: September 23, 2021, 03:47:11 AM by Dan O'meara »

Offline Jerry Freeman

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Re: The TSBD rollcall that doubtfully happened
« Reply #2 on: September 23, 2021, 04:36:40 AM »
Trying to pick through this mess of an OP...
First up - Sorrels goes outside the front door and asks if anybody knows what going on and is pointed towards Brennan. It doesn't matter who pointed Brennan out to him (which is a genuinely stupid question), what matters is what time Brennan was stood out front. This would give us a good idea what time Sorrels actually got there and what time he asked Truly to get the names together.
Second point - The "someone" in Frazier's account of the roll call must've been Truly (doing what Sorrels asked him to do)

in the footage below can we see Brennan in the right hand image when the cop with the white cap moves up the steps at a time when Williams, Lovelady and Danny Arce are stood outside the building?
Can't live without it huh?
Quote
It doesn't matter who pointed Brennan out to him (which is a genuinely stupid question)
No it's not either-- why did you write that?... but I said no biggie didn't I?
Quote
.First up - Sorrels goes outside the front door and asks if anybody knows what going on
Now that would have been a stupid question. But I don't think he really said that...'what's going on'? Sorrels went in the back and came out the front. Read it again. Doesn't say how he got back to the TSBD either [I guess because he wasn't asked]
Quote
The "someone" in Frazier's account of the roll call must've been Truly (doing what Sorrels asked him to do)
Frazier forgot Truly's name? :D
Sorrels SAID that he asked for a list of the entire building employees not just the warehouse.
Quote
in the footage below can we see Brennan in the right hand image when the cop with the white cap moves up the steps at a time when Williams, Lovelady and Danny Arce are stood outside the building?
So what? What does that have to do with Sorrels? What does that have to do with a roll call?
Quit chasing your tail...it's making you dizzy.

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Re: The TSBD rollcall that doubtfully happened
« Reply #2 on: September 23, 2021, 04:36:40 AM »


Offline Dan O'meara

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Re: The TSBD rollcall that doubtfully happened
« Reply #3 on: September 23, 2021, 09:16:27 AM »
Can't live without it huh?No it's not either-- why did you write that?... but I said no biggie didn't I? Now that would have been a stupid question. But I don't think he really said that...'what's going on'? Sorrels went in the back and came out the front. Read it again. Doesn't say how he got back to the TSBD either [I guess because he wasn't asked]Frazier forgot Truly's name? :D
Sorrels SAID that he asked for a list of the entire building employees not just the warehouse.So what? What does that have to do with Sorrels? What does that have to do with a roll call?
Quit chasing your tail...it's making you dizzy.

"Frazier forgot Truly's name? :D"

??
Read your own post. Frazier mentions Truly by name.

BUELL WESLEY FRAZIER -- "Mr. Shelley got us together—he and Mr. Truly—and we had a roll call."

GARY MACK -- "And where did this take place?"

FRAZIER -- "Outside Mr. Shelley's office."

MACK -- "Did they actually read off names? Or did they just ask you guys, 'anybody missing'?"

FRAZIER -- "No, they read names off and you had to answer."

MACK -- "Okay. And who was missing?"

FRAZIER -- "The only person missing was Lee Oswald."

To be honest, Frazier is so FoS it's hard to know what to make of this statement, only that it ties in with Truly being asked to get the names of the TSBD employees.

"So what? What does that have to do with Sorrels? What does that have to do with a roll call?"

What does Brennan stood out front have to do with Sorrels?
What does Bonnie Ray Williams, Billy Lovelady and Danny Arce stood out front have to do with the roll call?
 ::)

Offline Walt Cakebread

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Re: The TSBD rollcall that doubtfully happened
« Reply #4 on: September 23, 2021, 03:58:54 PM »
Who was that mysterious someone and how did they know about Brennan?
No biggie.
This subject was introduced recently in the Bus and Cab thread and was really off topic.
Based on this link...  http://www.prayer-man.com/the-roll-call-inside-the-tsbd-never-happened/#lightbox[group]/0/
The only mention of a collection of TSBD names or a roll call of any sort contained in the Warren Report that has been advanced... is that of Secret Service special agent in charge Dallas Tx -Forrest Sorrels.
Other points...What ever happened to this request for a stenographer? It might be noted that Brennan could not positively identify Oswald in a line-up but yet the entire dragnet was based on his supposed description of Lee. Sorrels was riding in the lead car and the lead car led JFK to the hospital. If he had seen what Brennan said he did...what could he have done about it?This was six months after that day but the timing was very well rehearsed recalled. Why did Sorrels go to the back door? He said he didn't know where the shots came from until he talked to Brennan but he went to the back door of the building.
Let's say he didn't talk to Truly until about 1:00...How long would it have taken to compile this employee muster and bear in mind that there were other businesses besides the school book people......
Would have had to been quite some minutes after 2 as Lee was getting packed into a car around 2 PM [I imagine] Also, it seems that Sorrels got around about as lightning fast as did W R Westbrook and Hugh Aynesworth that day.Of course he was belligerent...Oswald was a cold blooded murderer---But wait a second---Sorrels never mentioned that he had asked or even tried to find out just exactly what it was that Oswald was charged with? I guess Lee just looked like a cop killer and Sorrels got wise ::)Yeah where were those damn stenographers? And what prompted Sorrels to ask Lee about his travels? He had just met him.

 
William Shelley [for some reason]"started checking around" MISSES Lee! Finds Truly and reports.
 
Roy Truly  [for some reason]"started checking around" MISSES Lee! Finds Shelley and reports.
 :D Too rich
There was a list of employees it appears but could not possibly have been compiled before Oswald's arrest. So how come he was first on the list? I do not see a WC Exhibit # on this list. Why the check marks?

Who was the "someone" who read off the names if the warehouse employees were the only ones there? Why didn't they [Warren Commissioners] ask Wes Frazier who seemed to know? Harold Norman? Roy Truly? Bill Shelley? Charles Givens? Or some other warehouse employee?


It might be noted that Brennan could not positively identify Oswald in a line-up but yet the entire dragnet was based on his supposed description of Lee.


This is a common statement from the LNer contingent......But that's not true....  The last sentence of Howard Brennan's sworn affidavit  says..."I believe that I could identify this man if I ever saw him again"  In his sworn affidavit Brennan had gave a good description of the man that he saw STANDING and aiming a rifle out of a TSBD window, so he definitely knew what the man looked like.   Just a few hours after Brennan swore that he would be able to identify the man, he was taken to view a line up in which Lee Oswald was one of the men in the line up.

What he actually told the cops at the line up was the man was NOT there in the line up.    But the cops wouldn't accept his statement and they started badgering and threatening him.....  The cops asked Brennan how he could be sure that the man wasn't in the line up and Brennan replied that for one thing the man that he'd seen aiming the rifle was wearing KHAKI clothing. The Cops countered that Lee had changed his clothes in his room at the rooming house But they didn't bother to tell Brennan that Lee Oswald didn't have any khaki colored clothing.
« Last Edit: September 23, 2021, 07:19:31 PM by Walt Cakebread »

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Re: The TSBD rollcall that doubtfully happened
« Reply #4 on: September 23, 2021, 03:58:54 PM »


Online Richard Smith

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Re: The TSBD rollcall that doubtfully happened
« Reply #5 on: September 23, 2021, 04:28:14 PM »
Again, it makes no apparent difference whether or not there was a roll call.  Truly had encountered Oswald in the TSBD moments after the assassination.  He did not see him around after the fact.  So he knew Oswald was in the building during the assassination and appeared to be missing either because he just didn't see him around or there was a roll call.  Sufficient grounds to note to the DPD without knowing if it was significant.  It is silly to imply that Truly was somehow part of the conspiracy and in on it right from the start.  Truly is the guy who allows Oswald to get out of the building under the nose of the police by vouching for him while Baker has a gun on Oswald.  A perfect chance for the conspirators to have killed Oswald if Truly and Baker are in on the plot.  They encounter Oswald acting suspiciously while trying to exit the building, he resists arrest and Baker shoots him in the struggle.  A plausible scenario with no other witnesses to contradict.  Case closed.  No need for Ruby or risking that Oswald talks to the press.

Offline Jerry Freeman

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Re: The TSBD rollcall that doubtfully happened
« Reply #6 on: September 23, 2021, 07:52:15 PM »
Again, it makes no apparent difference whether or not there was a roll call. 
  It is silly to imply that Truly was somehow part of the conspiracy and in on it right from the start. A perfect chance for the conspirators to have killed Oswald if Truly and Baker are in on the plot.   
Again, it makes no apparent difference whether or not there was a roll call.
It is noted that in the final report summery a roll call was not mentioned.
It is silly to imply that Truly was somehow part of the conspiracy and in on it right from the start.
This was not 'implied' though the documents speak for themselves. I will qualify that by stating that I don't forward an opinion that Truly was "involved from the beginning". I could not base that belief on any fact.
 A perfect chance for the conspirators to have killed Oswald if Truly and Baker are in on the plot.
Again that was not suggested. Stop inventing these claims.

« Last Edit: September 23, 2021, 08:04:40 PM by Jerry Freeman »

Offline Walt Cakebread

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Re: The TSBD rollcall that doubtfully happened
« Reply #7 on: September 23, 2021, 08:32:56 PM »
Again, it makes no apparent difference whether or not there was a roll call.
It is noted that in the final report summery a roll call was not mentioned.
It is silly to imply that Truly was somehow part of the conspiracy and in on it right from the start.
This was not 'implied' though the documents speak for themselves. I will qualify that by stating that I don't forward an opinion that Truly was "involved from the beginning". I could not base that belief on any fact.
 A perfect chance for the conspirators to have killed Oswald if Truly and Baker are in on the plot.
Again that was not suggested. Stop inventing these claims.

I believe Roy Truly was a member of the minute men ..... and a phone call from the leader ( Walker) informing him that Lee Oswald was to be the scapegoat in the murder of JFK, would have been enough for Truly to have started the police  after Lee Oswald.

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Re: The TSBD rollcall that doubtfully happened
« Reply #7 on: September 23, 2021, 08:32:56 PM »