Perception of Reality

[Dan O'meara]

Why couldn't it possibly be any other way?
Because you say so??

Because Adams says so:

Belin: Will you state what you saw, what you did, and what you heard?
Miss Adams: I watched the motorcade come down Main, as it turned from Main onto Houston, and watched it proceed around the corner on Elm, and apparently somebody in the crowd called to the late President, because he and his wife both turned abruptly and faced the building, so we had a very good view of both of them.
Belin: Where was their car as you got this good view, had it come directly opposite your window? Had it come to that point on Elm, or not, if you can remember.
Miss Adams: I believe it was prior, just a second or so prior to that.


You should allow Adams' testimony to inform you about what she could see - that both JFK and Jackie turned to face the TSBD
But no...you are right therefore the witness is wrong

I just showed you what Adams said. You are the one who needs to listen to reason instead of assuming that you are right and everyone else is wrong.


Adams could see JFK and Jackie both turn to face the TSBD (@ z190) because she could see through the branches of the tree…

I have already shown you that Adams said (under oath) that she saw this prior to JFK going behind the tree. Here’s some more testimony that you need to read and understand:

Miss Adams: And from our vantage point we were able to see what the President’s wife was wearing, the roses in the car, and things that would attract women’s attention. Then we heard—then we were obstructed from the view. Belin: By what? Miss Adams: A tree, and we heard a shot, and it was a pause, and then a second shot, and then a third shot.[\i]


You have zero idea about what Adams could see so you should accept her testimony and alter your opinion accordingly.

I have her statement that her view was obstructed by the tree. And that she saw them look her way before the tree obstructed her view. You need to look in the mirror and repeat your above advice (to yourself this time).


The power of Adams testimony is that it corroborates Woodwards testimony and is confirmed by the Z-Film - nowhere else do both JFK and Jackie turn to face directly to their right other than around z190 - you cannot get away from this so you call the witness a liar.

This happened just before Zapruder began filming that segment. The end of the Towner film segment shows it. There is a brief period between the end of the Towner film segment and the beginning of the Zapruder segment. Just because you don’t think it can be seen in the Zapruder film doesn’t mean that it didn’t happen. Adams swears that it happened just before they went behind the tree. I believe her. You keep saying that I claim that Adams is wrong and a liar. No I haven’t, you keep jumping to unsubstantiated conclusions (about many things).

Wow!

So. in a nutshell, you are saying that in the period of time between the end of the Towner film and the beginning of the Z-Film (frame z133), that JFK and Jackie face towards the TSBD?
Is that correct?
If not, please show in the video record where both Jackie and JFK face towards the TSBD.

[Dan O'meara]

Sure looks like the President's head would obscure Mrs. Kennedy's face to Woodward in the Z190s.

The question is the line-of-sight between Woodward and Mrs. Kennedy's face, with the President's head in between. And Kennedy could see clear down to Jean Newman. His raised right hand is not in the way. The President's raised right hand obscures his face to Zapruder, but Zapruder has a different line-of-sight than Jean Newman.


Jackie seems to have turned her face forward enough for Woodward's group to see.

I don't think Woodward says Mrs. Kennedy turned her head sharply to the right prior to the first shot.

    "Just as President and Mrs. Kennedy went by, they turned and waved at them. Just a second
     or two later, she heard a loud noise. At this point, it appeared to her that President and Mrs.
     Kennedy probably were about one hundred feet from her."

    "But we started clapping and cheering and both he and Mrs. Kennedy turned, and smiled and
     waved, directly at us, it seemed."

I don't see where Mrs. Kennedy literally waved to anyone during the Towner or Zapruder films, so Woodward may be exaggerating on that point.

While we're at it, where does the President face forward after acknowledging the Woodward group?

    "After acknowledging our cheers, he faced forward again."

Can't be after the Z190s, because the President faces rightward until being shot in the Z220s. The President does face forward in the Z130s, which would be after Woodward thought he had "acknowledged" her group's cheers. The first shot then followed. If this happened in the late-Z150s, it could have caused the rapid rightward head-turns of the Connallys and Mrs. Kennedy. They all begin to turn their heads a second or so before the Z190s. The President turned his head rightward, too. Woodward said the Kennedys looked around after hearing the first shot.

I'm confused Jerry.
Please point out the moment where both JFK and Jackie are looking "directly" towards Woodward and friends.
In the Towner frames you posted JFK and Jackie are looking in completely different directions so we know it's not at that point.
Woodward also states that it was " just as [JFK and Jackie] went by, they turned and waved".
JUST AS THEY WENT BY!
This is not the z130's as you would have it.

Also, when JFK is shot he is facing forward, you have a copy of the Z-Film so you know this is true.

Also again, you like to use the Connally's head movement a lot to indicate something or other, but both John and Nellie insist JFK was hit by the first shot - yet more support for a first shot at z223.

[Andrew Mason]

Sure looks like the President's head would obscure Mrs. Kennedy's face to Woodward in the Z190s.

You can't be serious! The car is moving 1 foot per frame. Even if you think that a person standing on the sidewalk could not see over JFK's head (highly doubtful), his head would block Jackie for less than 55 ms.

While we're at it, where does the President face forward after acknowledging the Woodward group?

Talk about confirmation bias! You cannot see JFK when he is behind the Stemmons sign. We cannot conclude from the photographic evidence exactly where he is facing after z193. He appears to be turning forward after z193. Although Willis appears to show his head turned somewhat to the right at z202, according to Willis the first shot had just occurred  So that position could be an initial reaction. Or it could be a continuation of a forward turn begun a few frames earlier.

[Charles Collins]

Wow!

So. in a nutshell, you are saying that in the period of time between the end of the Towner film and the beginning of the Z-Film (frame z133), that JFK and Jackie face towards the TSBD?
Is that correct?
If not, please show in the video record where both Jackie and JFK face towards the TSBD.

No I am not saying that. And my opinion is that the JFK wave that can be seen near the end of the Tower film segment is what Adams was describing. It is possible that Jackie turned her head between the end of the Towner film segment and the beginning of the Zapruder film segment. But I am not claiming that she actually did, just throwing out the idea that it is possible. Regardless of whether or not Jackie did that, Adams was certainly not describing something that happened after the limo went behind the tree. She explicitly says that it was prior to that point in time.

[Dan O'meara]

No I am not saying that. And my opinion is that the JFK wave that can be seen near the end of the Tower film segment is what Adams was describing. It is possible that Jackie turned her head between the end of the Towner film segment and the beginning of the Zapruder film segment. But I am not claiming that she actually did, just throwing out the idea that it is possible. Regardless of whether or not Jackie did that, Adams was certainly not describing something that happened after the limo went behind the tree. She explicitly says that it was prior to that point in time.

You're right Charles, Adams is not describing something that happened after the limo went behind the tree.
It is clear she is describing something that happened just before the limo went out of her sight behind the tree.
She is describing a moment when both JFK and Jackie turn towards the TSBD in response to somebody in the crowd calling out to them.
Both JFK and Jackie turn to face the TSBD.
This is exactly the same moment Woodward describes.

Adams describes the turn as "abrupt", Woodward describes JFK and Jackie looking directly towards them.
Woodward also describes this happening just as the limo passes by her position.
In the video record we are looking for a moment when both JFK and Jackie look abruptly to their right.
There is only one such moment in the video record - around z190.

You will not accept that Adams can see JFK and Jackie facing towards the TSBD even though she says "we had a very good view of both of them."

Two witnesses describe exactly the same event and it is captured by Zapruder but you deny all this evidence because, as far as you're concerned, the tree was in the way.

You are wrong - you must see that this is the only logical conclusion.
You have a very poor Perception of Reality.
It would seem as far as you're concerned Reality is what you say it is!!

[Charles Collins]

You're right Charles, Adams is not describing something that happened after the limo went behind the tree.
It is clear she is describing something that happened just before the limo went out of her sight behind the tree.
She is describing a moment when both JFK and Jackie turn towards the TSBD in response to somebody in the crowd calling out to them.
Both JFK and Jackie turn to face the TSBD.
This is exactly the same moment Woodward describes.

Adams describes the turn as "abrupt", Woodward describes JFK and Jackie looking directly towards them.
Woodward also describes this happening just as the limo passes by her position.
In the video record we are looking for a moment when both JFK and Jackie look abruptly to their right.
There is only one such moment in the video record - around z190.

You will not accept that Adams can see JFK and Jackie facing towards the TSBD even though she says "we had a very good view of both of them."

Two witnesses describe exactly the same event and it is captured by Zapruder but you deny all this evidence because, as far as you're concerned, the tree was in the way.

You are wrong - you must see that this is the only logical conclusion.
You have a very poor Perception of Reality.
It would seem as far as you're concerned Reality is what you say it is!!

you must see that this is the only logical conclusion.

I can see you jumping to conclusions without any basis in logic. And you dismissing physical evidence so that you can continue to believe some ambiguous accounts support your theory.

[Andrew Mason]

you must see that this is the only logical conclusion.

I can see you jumping to conclusions without any basis in logic. And you dismissing physical evidence so that you can continue to believe some ambiguous accounts support your theory.

What I am having trouble understanding is how you can be so confident that your interpretation of a single witness can be absolutely relied on and yet you dismiss the preponderance of witness evidence as to the 1.....2...3 shot pattern, the uncontradicted evidence of the motorcade witnesses and photographers that the first shot was after z186, and the uncontradicted evidence of at least 22 witnesses who said that JFK did not smile and wave after the first shot but moved left/slumped/clutched at his neck/or assumed a blank stare.

You simply ignore vast bodies of independent evidence that absolutely conflicts with a first shot anywhere near z133 let alone a shot that missed.  How is this not confirmation bias? 

[Charles Collins]

What I am having trouble understanding is how you can be so confident that your interpretation of a single witness can be absolutely relied on and yet you dismiss the preponderance of witness evidence as to the 1.....2...3 shot pattern, the uncontradicted evidence of the motorcade witnesses and photographers that the first shot was after z186, and the uncontradicted evidence of at least 22 witnesses who said that JFK did not smile and wave after the first shot but moved left/slumped/clutched at his neck/or assumed a blank stare.

You simply ignore vast bodies of independent evidence that absolutely conflicts with a first shot anywhere near z133 let alone a shot that missed.  How is this not confirmation bias?

I believe that Wills was partially correct about his photo being taken as a result of the first shot. But it was the photo taken before the one he assumed was the photo. There was a delay in between the time that the photos were taken and when he got them back. I think that he realized the mistake by the time of the Garrison fiasco.

I have stated earlier in this thread that I am not immune to confirmation bias. My confidence lies in the greater precision of the timing allowed by the timing of the photographic record items and the stationary objects like the tree.