Perception of Reality

[Andrew Mason]

First of all, you are relying on witnesses.  Tina Turner (and Victoria Adams).

Yes, I am relying on witnesses. However, their accounts can be related to specific points in time that coincide with the documented photographic record timings. By the way it is Towner (not Turner).

On page 7 of her book: Tina Towner - My story as the youngest photographer at the Kennedy assassination, Tina writes:

… but there was not enough time before the first gunshot sounded - only a second or two, if that, after I stopped filming.

(Emphasis added.)

I have seen where she said something like: “The first shot occurred right about the same time that I stopped filming”. But I don’t remember exactly where I saw that. I think that it was one of her earlier statements though.

But you are relying heavily on uncorroborated estimate of a 13 year old girl as to the number of seconds she recalled between the time she stopped filming and the time of the first shot.  It is also important to note that her estimates varied between 1 and 6 seconds.  Is it not more reliable to look at witnesses who recalled whether the first shot was before or after an event that they can document? 

[Charles Collins]

But you are relying heavily on uncorroborated estimate of a 13 year old girl as to the number of seconds she recalled between the time she stopped filming and the time of the first shot.  It is also important to note that her estimates varied between 1 and 6 seconds.  Is it not more reliable to look at witnesses who recalled whether the first shot was before or after an event that they can document?

Our memories can be faulty. However, we tend to remember things by association. And when multiple people’s memories agree about the timing, they tend to corroborate each other. In my opinion, the accounts of Tina Towner, Victoria Adams, Howard Brenner, Amos Euins, and some others point to the first shot occurring just before the Zapruder film segment begins. The actions of the limo occupants, and some others immediately after the Zapruder film segment begins appears to show them looking around after being surprised by a loud noise. Tina Towner says in her book that she studied the Dorman film which briefly shows her and her parents just after she stopped filming. And that her father and some other witnesses appear to suddenly look around as if looking for the source of the loud noise. I haven’t studied the Dorman film that closely to confirm what she says. She had access to the original film (I believe) at the Sixth Floor Museum when she noted those actions. And I would assume that the quality of the images she had access to was higher than what we see in the online versions.

[Jerry Organ]

None of the witnesses said they "believe" he reacted to the first shot.  They describe what they saw:
...
19.   Jean Newman (Affidavit, 19 H 489, “The motorcade had just passed me when I heard that I thought was a firecracker at first, and the President had just passed me, because after he had just passed, there was a loud report, it just scared me, and I noticed that the President jumped, he sort of ducked his head down and I thought at the time that it probably scared him, too, just like it did me, because he flinched, like he jumped. I saw him put his elbows like this, with his hands on his chest.”)

Newman is a two-shot witness ("I just heard two shots." "cannot definitely state that additional shot or shots were not fired"). She is describing the jump-and-duck shot occurring when "the motorcade had just passed" and before the head shot. The motorcade (ie: limousine) was still in front of Newman at Z193. Much of the front of the car was pass her position by Z222.

[Andrew Mason]

Our memories can be faulty. However, we tend to remember things by association.

Right. Like Croft, Betzner and Hughes remembering that their film exposures occurred BEFORE the first shot.

And when multiple people’s memories agree about the timing, they tend to corroborate each other. In my opinion, the accounts of Tina Towner, Victoria Adams, Howard Brenner, Amos Euins, and some others point to the first shot occurring just before the Zapruder film segment begins.

Charles, you are simply confirming your own bias.  All Victoria Adams said in her first statement was that she heard 3 shots when the motorcade was passing.  She said her view was obstructed at the time and in her WC testimony she said her view of the President's car was obstructed by a tree at the time of the first shot. Since she said she was looking out one of the two windows in the third set of windows from the east side* this means that the oak tree (the only possible obstruction) was between the third set of windows from the east corner (4th floor) and the President's car. In other words, it was some distance along Elm St., not anywhere close to z133:


*Dorothy Garner confirms this:  "I know this window to be the fifth window from the east end of the building. I recall that Mrs. Elsie Dorman was sitting next to me at that time looking out the sixth window and that Victoria Adams and Sandra Styles were both standing next to Mrs. Dorman and myself looking out the fifth and sixth windows".

The actions of the limo occupants, and some others immediately after the Zapruder film segment begins appears to show them looking around after being surprised by a loud noise.

Fine. That is what Secret Service agents are supposed to do normally. So that means absolutely nothing. But they are all consistent in saying that the first shot occurred when 1. the VP car had just finished the turn (it is still turning when last seen at z180). 2. the VP security car was about to finish the turn (it is pointing north at z180):

As far as JFK, Jacqueline and JBC looking, that fits precisely with what Mary Woodward said: she said they shouted and JFK and Jackie turned toward them and the President  waved.  She said they were the last people that the President acknowledged before the first "horrible ear-shattering noise".

[Charles Collins]

Newman is a two-shot witness ("I just heard two shots." "cannot definitely state that additional shot or shots were not fired"). She is describing the jump-and-duck shot occurring when "the motorcade had just passed" and before the head shot. The motorcade (ie: limousine) was still in front of Newman at Z193. Much of the front of the car was pass her position by Z222.

One aspect of the accounts that claim that JFK was “right in front of them” that seems ambiguous to me is that that perception depends upon which direction their heads are facing at that moment. In other words, what they describe as right in front of them could be quite different from what we think is right in front of them. That is why the accounts that specify a stationary object are in my opinion more accurate.

[Charles Collins]

Right. Like Croft, Betzner and Hughes remembering that their film exposures occurred BEFORE the first shot.Charles, you are simply confirming your own bias.  All Victoria Adams said in her first statement was that she heard 3 shots when the motorcade was passing.  In her WC testimony she said her view of the President's car was obstructed by the tree at the time of the first shot. Since she said she was looking out one of the two windows in the third set of windows from the east side* this means that the oak tree was between the third set of windows from the east corner (4th floor) and the President's car. In other words, it was some distance along Elm St., not anywhere close to z133:


*Dorothy Garner confirms this:  "I know this window to be the fifth window from the east end of the building. I recall that Mrs. Elsie Dorman was sitting next to me at that time looking out the sixth window and that Victoria Adams and Sandra Styles were both standing next to Mrs. Dorman and myself looking out the fifth and sixth windows".
Fine. That is what they are supposed to do normally. So that means absolutely nothing. But they are all consistent in saying that the first shot occurred when 1. the VP car had just finished the turn (it is still turning when last seen at z180). 2. the VP security car was about to finish the turn (it is pointing north at z180):

Victoria Adams spoke to detective James R. Leavelle of the DPD on 2/17/64. This is part of her statement: "When the President got in front of us I heard someone call him, and he turned. That is when I heard the first shot."

Suddenly and very rapidly jerking their heads around from right to the left and back again almost simultaneously is not normal. It’s an indication that something unexpected has happened. I believe that it was the first shot.

Again the difference between your approach and mine is verifiable photographic evidence.

[Dan O'meara]

Our memories can be faulty. However, we tend to remember things by association. And when multiple people’s memories agree about the timing, they tend to corroborate each other. In my opinion, the accounts of Tina Towner, Victoria Adams, Howard Brenner, Amos Euins, and some others point to the first shot occurring just before the Zapruder film segment begins. The actions of the limo occupants, and some others immediately after the Zapruder film segment begins appears to show them looking around after being surprised by a loud noise. Tina Towner says in her book that she studied the Dorman film which briefly shows her and her parents just after she stopped filming. And that her father and some other witnesses appear to suddenly look around as if looking for the source of the loud noise. I haven’t studied the Dorman film that closely to confirm what she says. She had access to the original film (I believe) at the Sixth Floor Museum when she noted those actions. And I would assume that the quality of the images she had access to was higher than what we see in the online versions.

"In my opinion, the accounts of Tina Towner, Victoria Adams, Howard Brenner, Amos Euins, and some others point to the first shot occurring just before the Zapruder film segment begins."

Talk about cherry-picking of the first order.
You must surely be able to see that.

It's amazing how similar you and Andrew are - both touting flimsy theories based on a handful of cherry picked witnesses and both theories utterly refuted by the Z-Film.

[Dan O'meara]

One aspect of the accounts that claim that JFK was “right in front of them” that seems ambiguous to me is that that perception depends upon which direction their heads are facing at that moment. In other words, what they describe as right in front of them could be quite different from what we think is right in front of them. That is why the accounts that specify a stationary object are in my opinion more accurate.

Any normal person can stand next to a road and say, with conviction and accuracy, when a car has passed right in front of them.
To suggest otherwise is the sort of pure nonsense that arises when defending a flimsy theory.