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Author Topic: Perception of Reality  (Read 22892 times)

Offline Andrew Mason

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Re: Perception of Reality
« Reply #96 on: October 12, 2021, 01:47:28 AM »
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Sure looks like the President's head would obscure Mrs. Kennedy's face to Woodward in the Z190s.
You can't be serious! The car is moving 1 foot per frame. Even if you think that a person standing on the sidewalk could not see over JFK's head (highly doubtful), his head would block Jackie for less than 55 ms.

Quote
While we're at it, where does the President face forward after acknowledging the Woodward group?
Talk about confirmation bias! You cannot see JFK when he is behind the Stemmons sign. We cannot conclude from the photographic evidence exactly where he is facing after z193. He appears to be turning forward after z193. Although Willis appears to show his head turned somewhat to the right at z202, according to Willis the first shot had just occurred  So that position could be an initial reaction. Or it could be a continuation of a forward turn begun a few frames earlier.

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Re: Perception of Reality
« Reply #96 on: October 12, 2021, 01:47:28 AM »


Online Charles Collins

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Re: Perception of Reality
« Reply #97 on: October 12, 2021, 02:20:05 AM »
Wow!

So. in a nutshell, you are saying that in the period of time between the end of the Towner film and the beginning of the Z-Film (frame z133), that JFK and Jackie face towards the TSBD?
Is that correct?
If not, please show in the video record where both Jackie and JFK face towards the TSBD.

No I am not saying that. And my opinion is that the JFK wave that can be seen near the end of the Tower film segment is what Adams was describing. It is possible that Jackie turned her head between the end of the Towner film segment and the beginning of the Zapruder film segment. But I am not claiming that she actually did, just throwing out the idea that it is possible. Regardless of whether or not Jackie did that, Adams was certainly not describing something that happened after the limo went behind the tree. She explicitly says that it was prior to that point in time.

Offline Dan O'meara

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Re: Perception of Reality
« Reply #98 on: October 12, 2021, 02:48:10 AM »
No I am not saying that. And my opinion is that the JFK wave that can be seen near the end of the Tower film segment is what Adams was describing. It is possible that Jackie turned her head between the end of the Towner film segment and the beginning of the Zapruder film segment. But I am not claiming that she actually did, just throwing out the idea that it is possible. Regardless of whether or not Jackie did that, Adams was certainly not describing something that happened after the limo went behind the tree. She explicitly says that it was prior to that point in time.

You're right Charles, Adams is not describing something that happened after the limo went behind the tree.
It is clear she is describing something that happened just before the limo went out of her sight behind the tree.
She is describing a moment when both JFK and Jackie turn towards the TSBD in response to somebody in the crowd calling out to them.
Both JFK and Jackie turn to face the TSBD.
This is exactly the same moment Woodward describes.

Adams describes the turn as "abrupt", Woodward describes JFK and Jackie looking directly towards them.
Woodward also describes this happening just as the limo passes by her position.
In the video record we are looking for a moment when both JFK and Jackie look abruptly to their right.
There is only one such moment in the video record - around z190.

You will not accept that Adams can see JFK and Jackie facing towards the TSBD even though she says "we had a very good view of both of them."

Two witnesses describe exactly the same event and it is captured by Zapruder but you deny all this evidence because, as far as you're concerned, the tree was in the way.

You are wrong - you must see that this is the only logical conclusion.
You have a very poor Perception of Reality.
It would seem as far as you're concerned Reality is what you say it is!!



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Re: Perception of Reality
« Reply #98 on: October 12, 2021, 02:48:10 AM »


Online Charles Collins

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Re: Perception of Reality
« Reply #99 on: October 12, 2021, 03:14:19 AM »
You're right Charles, Adams is not describing something that happened after the limo went behind the tree.
It is clear she is describing something that happened just before the limo went out of her sight behind the tree.
She is describing a moment when both JFK and Jackie turn towards the TSBD in response to somebody in the crowd calling out to them.
Both JFK and Jackie turn to face the TSBD.
This is exactly the same moment Woodward describes.

Adams describes the turn as "abrupt", Woodward describes JFK and Jackie looking directly towards them.
Woodward also describes this happening just as the limo passes by her position.
In the video record we are looking for a moment when both JFK and Jackie look abruptly to their right.
There is only one such moment in the video record - around z190.

You will not accept that Adams can see JFK and Jackie facing towards the TSBD even though she says "we had a very good view of both of them."

Two witnesses describe exactly the same event and it is captured by Zapruder but you deny all this evidence because, as far as you're concerned, the tree was in the way.

You are wrong - you must see that this is the only logical conclusion.
You have a very poor Perception of Reality.
It would seem as far as you're concerned Reality is what you say it is!!

you must see that this is the only logical conclusion.

I can see you jumping to conclusions without any basis in logic. And you dismissing physical evidence so that you can continue to believe some ambiguous accounts support your theory.
« Last Edit: October 12, 2021, 03:15:23 AM by Charles Collins »

Offline Andrew Mason

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Re: Perception of Reality
« Reply #100 on: October 12, 2021, 05:17:53 PM »
you must see that this is the only logical conclusion.

I can see you jumping to conclusions without any basis in logic. And you dismissing physical evidence so that you can continue to believe some ambiguous accounts support your theory.
What I am having trouble understanding is how you can be so confident that your interpretation of a single witness can be absolutely relied on and yet you dismiss the preponderance of witness evidence as to the 1.....2...3 shot pattern, the uncontradicted evidence of the motorcade witnesses and photographers that the first shot was after z186, and the uncontradicted evidence of at least 22 witnesses who said that JFK did not smile and wave after the first shot but moved left/slumped/clutched at his neck/or assumed a blank stare.

You simply ignore vast bodies of independent evidence that absolutely conflicts with a first shot anywhere near z133 let alone a shot that missed.  How is this not confirmation bias? 

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Re: Perception of Reality
« Reply #100 on: October 12, 2021, 05:17:53 PM »


Online Charles Collins

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Re: Perception of Reality
« Reply #101 on: October 12, 2021, 07:15:24 PM »
What I am having trouble understanding is how you can be so confident that your interpretation of a single witness can be absolutely relied on and yet you dismiss the preponderance of witness evidence as to the 1.....2...3 shot pattern, the uncontradicted evidence of the motorcade witnesses and photographers that the first shot was after z186, and the uncontradicted evidence of at least 22 witnesses who said that JFK did not smile and wave after the first shot but moved left/slumped/clutched at his neck/or assumed a blank stare.

You simply ignore vast bodies of independent evidence that absolutely conflicts with a first shot anywhere near z133 let alone a shot that missed.  How is this not confirmation bias?

I believe that Wills was partially correct about his photo being taken as a result of the first shot. But it was the photo taken before the one he assumed was the photo. There was a delay in between the time that the photos were taken and when he got them back. I think that he realized the mistake by the time of the Garrison fiasco.

I have stated earlier in this thread that I am not immune to confirmation bias. My confidence lies in the greater precision of the timing allowed by the timing of the photographic record items and the stationary objects like the tree.

Online Marjan Rynkiewicz

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Re: Perception of Reality
« Reply #102 on: October 12, 2021, 11:04:07 PM »
Here is some wordage from my thread "Oswald's shot-1 was at Z113?".
Adams supports a shot at Z113, before JFK disappears behind the oak.
https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,2862.0.html
Victoria Adams heard Oswald's shot-1
either before her view of JFK was obstructed by a tree, or after, her wording is ambiguous.  If Adams heard the shot after JFK was obstructed then that would be at say Zapruder frame Z123 or later, ie at least 10 frames later than what we know to be the actual position of JFK at the time of Oswald's shot-1, ie Z113.  My understanding of her wordage tells me that she heard the shot before her view of JFK was obstructed, which accords with Z113 being the time &place of the shot.

Mr. BELIN - From the east side, were you standing in the third pair, of either of those windows?
Miss ADAMS - Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN - Now, of that third pair, from the east side, would it have been the east window or the west window?
Miss ADAMS - The west window.
Mr. BELIN - So another way, if you don't count in pairs, but count in single units from the east side, you would have been in the sixth window from your left as you were facing out the window, is that correct?
Miss ADAMS - That's right.
Mr. BELIN - Were you standing with anyone
Miss ADAMS - Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN - With whom?
Miss ADAMS - I was standing with Sandra Styles, Elsie Dorman, and Dorothy May Garner.
Mr. BELIN - Will you state what you saw, what you did, and what you heard?
Miss ADAMS - I watched the motorcade come down Main, as it turned from Main onto Houston, and watched it proceed around the corner on Elm, and apparently somebody in the crowd called to the late President, because he and his wife both turned abruptly and faced the building, so we had a very good view of both of them.
Mr. BELIN - Where was their car as you got .this good view, had it come directly opposite your window? Had it come to that point on Elm, or not, if you can remember
Miss ADAMS - I believe it was prior, just a second or so prior to that.
Mr. BELIN - All right.
Miss ADAMS - And from our vantage point we were able to see what the President's wife was wearing, the roses in the car, and things that would attract men's attention.
Then we heard --- then we were obstructed from the view.
Mr. BELIN - By what?
Miss ADAMS - A tree. and we heard a shot, and it was a pause, and then a second shot, and then a third shot.
It sounded like a firecracker or a cannon at a football game, it seemed as if it came from the right below rather than from the left above. Possibly because of the report. And after the third shot, following that, the third shot, I went to the back of the building down the back stairs, and encountered Bill Shelley and Bill Lovelady on the first floor on the way out to the Houston Street dock.

The pix shows the traject of the slug from Oswald to the signal arm & then to JFK.
And it shows the window where Adams was watching (with Dorman & others), & we see the tree.



The ricochet gave us three lots of fragments.
The shower of small lead hit JFK in the back of the head, actually the right-hand-side of the back, koz he was looking right (Xrays).
The lead slug put a hole in the floor near the jump seats, & rattled around tween the driveshaft road & limo.
The full metal jacket broke in two as usual, & ended up hitting carpet tween the jump seats (CE567 CE569).

« Last Edit: October 12, 2021, 11:55:17 PM by Marjan Rynkiewicz »

Online Marjan Rynkiewicz

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Re: Perception of Reality
« Reply #103 on: October 12, 2021, 11:24:53 PM »
Here is in effect Towner frame T138, which is missing in Robin Unger's gallery. He shows T137 T139 T141 T142.
T138 & T140 are missing. And T143 never happened -- the last frame was T142 (i think).
So, here below is in effect frame T138, a printscreen from i think the Museum's online Tina footage.
Oswald's shot-1 was at Z112, say T137.
Slug hit signal arm (& fragments hit JFK) at Z113, say T138.

We know that Z113 was at T138 koz Nellie Connally is level with the end of the white painted road stripe, in the re-enactment footage, & in Tina's footage.

Sound hit Tina at Z114, say T139.
Tina hears bang at say T141.
Tina possibly had a non-voluntary startle reaction to the bang at say T143 (except that she stopped filming at T142).
Tina possibly had a voluntary fright reaction to the bang at say T145.


https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,2862.0.html
« Last Edit: October 12, 2021, 11:56:44 PM by Marjan Rynkiewicz »

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Re: Perception of Reality
« Reply #103 on: October 12, 2021, 11:24:53 PM »