Perception of Reality

[Charles Collins]

Charles, you are providing a perfect example of confirmation bias!!  You are using a third-hand account of someone who claims to have interviewed Adams long after the events and, instead of trying to corroborate that statement with bodies of consistent, independent evidence, you are taking what she is purported to have said as absolute gospel and are trying to fit it to the conclusion that you have already made. 

Not only that, you are not looking critically at the physical evidence.  The tree is does not begin to block Adams' view of the street until after z160 and she said that the first shot was after that.  That puts the President down around the lamppost next to which Woodward was standing:



There is zero evidence of a shot at z133. None.  But more to the point, there are large independent bodies of witness evidence that conflict with it.  You just dismiss that evidence by saying that you treat witness evidence as the least reliable form of evidence.  But you ignore the fact that YOU are using the evidence of ONE WITNESS to  support the z133 phantom missed shot!

  The tree is does not begin to block Adams' view of the street until after z160…

Use an accurate map that shows the layout from directly overhead. The Don Roberdeau map is one of these. That photo is not directly overhead, therefore the blue line doesn’t show the true angle.  Compare the angle from the sniper’s nest window to the tree to the angle from the Dorman window to the tree. Simple geometry shows that the difference in the angles means that Dorman would loose sight of JFK behind the tree well before the sniper does. Wake up, you are dreaming if you think otherwise. 

Here is a crop of Roberdeau's map showing the relevant area. The red lines that I added indicate the line of sight from the sniper's nest. The blue lines that I added indicate the line of sight from the Dorman window. You also need to consider that the tree (like most trees) gets larger near the lower limbs. Dorman's window is about 20 feet lower than the sniper's nest window, therefore the wider lower limbs affect the Dorman view more than they do the sniper's nest view.



Now, if you still think that Dorman's view wasn't blocked until after z160, I give up. You are completely blind to the truth.

[Andrew Mason]

Here is a crop of Roberdeau's map showing the relevant area. The red lines that I added indicate the line of sight from the sniper's nest. The blue lines that I added indicate the line of sight from the Dorman window. You also need to consider that the tree (like most trees) gets larger near the lower limbs. Dorman's window is about 20 feet lower than the sniper's nest window, therefore the wider lower limbs affect the Dorman view more than they do the sniper's nest view.



Now, if you still think that Dorman's view wasn't blocked until after z160, I give up. You are completely blind to the truth.

I noticed how the photos all show perfectly circular trees....  And you put Adams looking out the 6th window when the evidence indicates she was primarily looking out the 5th window.  If you were trying to avoid confirmation bias you would put her at the 5th window.....

[Charles Collins]

I noticed how the photos all show perfectly circular trees....  And you put Adams looking out the 6th window when the evidence indicates she was primarily looking out the 5th window.  If you were trying to avoid confirmation bias you would put her at the 5th window.....

I drew the lines from where Roberdeau shows her position. Moving it over a few feet to where you think it belongs isn’t going to change it enough to make much difference. The trees draw on Roberdeau’s map and our 3-D models are not exact replicas of the one in Dealey Plaza on 11/22/63. But they are close approximations. I think it is close enough for me to conclude that Adams had to be describing the wave that is shown near the end of the Towner film segment and ending at the start of the Zapruder film segment.

[Dan O'meara]

I gave up trying to find it here. But I do remember posting it in another thread. Anyway here is some substantiation for you:

A link to the download page of Dale Myers’ website:

http://www.jfkfiles.com/jfk/html/report_download.html

Either of the PDF files will get you the complete report. Look in the appendix III section for the timeline synchronization of the various films.

Here is a photo showing that the Hughes, Towner, and Dorman films all suddenly stopped about the same time. Tina Towner said she stopped filming on purpose and very shortly thereafter the shot rang out. Her film is the first of the three to stop, then the other two do shortly thereafter.

Substantiation??
Myers reports a letter sent from Hughes to his parents:
"About 5 seconds after I quit taking the pictures we heard the shots..."
How can Hughes be reacting to a shot when the shots didn't start until about 5 seconds after he quit filming??
Towner reports she stopped filming on purpose and the Dorman film stops for 49 frames!! How is that a reflex reaction to hearing a shot?
Could your substantiation be any weaker?

[Dan O'meara]

This is part of Mary Woodward's initial recollection of the shooting:

"We had been waiting about half an hour when the first motorcycle escorts came by, followed shortly by the President’s car. The President was looking straight ahead and we were afraid we would not get to see his face. But we started clapping and cheering and both he and Mrs. Kennedy turned, and smiled and waved, directly at us… After acknowledging our cheers, he [JFK] faced forward again and suddenly there was a horrible, ear-splitting noise coming from behind us and a little to the right."

Two things to note:

1)   Both JFK and Jackie turn directly towards where Woodward is standing.
2)   The first shot occurs after JFK has faced forward again.

In the Towner film Jackie is looking off to her left as JFK waves, so Woodward is not referring to this wave.
In the Croft pic (@ z162) Jackie is still looking off to the left.
In the Z-film Jackie does not turn to her right until around z190 just after JFK looks to his right and starts waving. This is clearly the wave Woodward is referring to.
The first shot doesn't occur until JFK looks forward again, after z190.

This cannot be coherently disputed.

[Charles Collins]

Substantiation??
Myers reports a letter sent from Hughes to his parents:
"About 5 seconds after I quit taking the pictures we heard the shots..."
How can Hughes be reacting to a shot when the shots didn't start until about 5 seconds after he quit filming??
Towner reports she stopped filming on purpose and the Dorman film stops for 49 frames!! How is that a reflex reaction to hearing a shot?
Could your substantiation be any weaker?

What substantiation did you ask for? Dale Myers’ information. You have it now thanks to my efforts (not your own efforts). It confirms my claim. There are many conflicting accounts. I give more weight to the accounts that agree with the physical evidence including the photographic record. Many witnesses said that they didn’t initially recognize the first bang as a shot. It appears to me that Hughes was one of them. Yes Towner stopped filming on purpose. I never indicated otherwise. The significance is that she said the first shot sounded within a second or two (if that) after she stopped filming. There is no reason to believe that a long stoppage of 49 frames couldn’t be the result of a shot fired. The fact that there’s a similar one that coincides with the shot around z224 tells me that it simply took her a few seconds to  gain her composure and start filming again. There are a lot of people who practically jump out of their skin at the sound of sudden loud noise. Reactions vary from person to person. Zapruder was able to continue filming during at least two of the shots. But he was much further away from the rifle.

[Charles Collins]

This is part of Mary Woodward's initial recollection of the shooting:

"We had been waiting about half an hour when the first motorcycle escorts came by, followed shortly by the President’s car. The President was looking straight ahead and we were afraid we would not get to see his face. But we started clapping and cheering and both he and Mrs. Kennedy turned, and smiled and waved, directly at us… After acknowledging our cheers, he [JFK] faced forward again and suddenly there was a horrible, ear-splitting noise coming from behind us and a little to the right."

Two things to note:

1)   Both JFK and Jackie turn directly towards where Woodward is standing.
2)   The first shot occurs after JFK has faced forward again.

In the Towner film Jackie is looking off to her left as JFK waves, so Woodward is not referring to this wave.
In the Croft pic (@ z162) Jackie is still looking off to the left.
In the Z-film Jackie does not turn to her right until around z190 just after JFK looks to his right and starts waving. This is clearly the wave Woodward is referring to.
The first shot doesn't occur until JFK looks forward again, after z190.

This cannot be coherently disputed.

There is an advantage to having the stationary object (tree) for a reference. There’s no way Adams was referring to the same wave that you believe Woodward was describing. So, conflicting accounts (if one believes in your theory). I give more weight to the Adams account because the tree makes it more precise and less ambiguous.

[Dan O'meara]

What substantiation did you ask for? Dale Myers’ information. You have it now thanks to my efforts (not your own efforts). It confirms my claim. There are many conflicting accounts. I give more weight to the accounts that agree with the physical evidence including the photographic record. Many witnesses said that they didn’t initially recognize the first bang as a shot. It appears to me that Hughes was one of them. Yes Towner stopped filming on purpose. I never indicated otherwise. The significance is that she said the first shot sounded within a second or two (if that) after she stopped filming. There is no reason to believe that a long stoppage of 49 frames couldn’t be the result of a shot fired. The fact that there’s a similar one that coincides with the shot around z224 tells me that it simply took her a few seconds to  gain her composure and start filming again. There are a lot of people who practically jump out of their skin at the sound of sudden loud noise. Reactions vary from person to person. Zapruder was able to continue filming during at least two of the shots. But he was much further away from the rifle.

"It confirms my claim."

Hughes stating that the shots started 5 seconds after he stopped filming confirms your claim that he reacted to a shot during his filming??
Is that supposed to be a joke?

According to the Roberdeau map Hughes is stood well over 300 feet away from the TSBD at the time of the shots yet you still believe the sound of the shot was so loud it caused him to flinch??

There is a fine line between confirmation bias and delusion.