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Author Topic: Perception of Reality  (Read 21621 times)

Offline Jerry Organ

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Re: Perception of Reality
« Reply #112 on: October 12, 2021, 07:47:47 PM »
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What I am having trouble understanding is how you can be so confident that your interpretation of a single witness can be absolutely relied on and yet you dismiss the preponderance of witness evidence as to the 1.....2...3 shot pattern,

Preponderance? Well, then, a majority of opinion (or someone's arbitrary "analysis" of what most said) suggests that the limousine stopped on Elm and that there's a huge gaping wound on the back of the President's head. Donald Trump, the worst President in history, came alarmingly close to a majority in 2020.

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the uncontradicted evidence of the motorcade witnesses and photographers that the first shot was after z186,

Your treatment of the evidence had been contradicted every time you post it. Sure, not to your satisfaction or enough to dissuade you from confirmation bias and cherry-picking. You're a defense attorney; all your education and abilities center on lying (or manipulating facts) as need dictates.

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and the uncontradicted evidence of at least 22 witnesses who said that JFK did not smile and wave after the first shot but moved left/slumped/clutched at his neck/or assumed a blank stare.

Who--among the witnesses reporting three distinct shots--said they saw Kennedy not smiling and waving after the first shot?

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You simply ignore vast bodies of independent evidence that absolutely conflicts with a first shot anywhere near z133 let alone a shot that missed.  How is this not confirmation bias?

Like you don't ignore the rightward head-turns of the Kennedys and Connallys, and Agent John Ready in the Z160s-to-Z180s.



Or that Connally here is just showing "concern" for Kennedy and not reacting to being shot through the torso.

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Re: Perception of Reality
« Reply #112 on: October 12, 2021, 07:47:47 PM »


Online Marjan Rynkiewicz

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Re: Perception of Reality
« Reply #113 on: October 12, 2021, 11:04:07 PM »
Here is some wordage from my thread "Oswald's shot-1 was at Z113?".
Adams supports a shot at Z113, before JFK disappears behind the oak.
https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,2862.0.html
Victoria Adams heard Oswald's shot-1
either before her view of JFK was obstructed by a tree, or after, her wording is ambiguous.  If Adams heard the shot after JFK was obstructed then that would be at say Zapruder frame Z123 or later, ie at least 10 frames later than what we know to be the actual position of JFK at the time of Oswald's shot-1, ie Z113.  My understanding of her wordage tells me that she heard the shot before her view of JFK was obstructed, which accords with Z113 being the time &place of the shot.

Mr. BELIN - From the east side, were you standing in the third pair, of either of those windows?
Miss ADAMS - Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN - Now, of that third pair, from the east side, would it have been the east window or the west window?
Miss ADAMS - The west window.
Mr. BELIN - So another way, if you don't count in pairs, but count in single units from the east side, you would have been in the sixth window from your left as you were facing out the window, is that correct?
Miss ADAMS - That's right.
Mr. BELIN - Were you standing with anyone
Miss ADAMS - Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN - With whom?
Miss ADAMS - I was standing with Sandra Styles, Elsie Dorman, and Dorothy May Garner.
Mr. BELIN - Will you state what you saw, what you did, and what you heard?
Miss ADAMS - I watched the motorcade come down Main, as it turned from Main onto Houston, and watched it proceed around the corner on Elm, and apparently somebody in the crowd called to the late President, because he and his wife both turned abruptly and faced the building, so we had a very good view of both of them.
Mr. BELIN - Where was their car as you got .this good view, had it come directly opposite your window? Had it come to that point on Elm, or not, if you can remember
Miss ADAMS - I believe it was prior, just a second or so prior to that.
Mr. BELIN - All right.
Miss ADAMS - And from our vantage point we were able to see what the President's wife was wearing, the roses in the car, and things that would attract men's attention.
Then we heard --- then we were obstructed from the view.
Mr. BELIN - By what?
Miss ADAMS - A tree. and we heard a shot, and it was a pause, and then a second shot, and then a third shot.
It sounded like a firecracker or a cannon at a football game, it seemed as if it came from the right below rather than from the left above. Possibly because of the report. And after the third shot, following that, the third shot, I went to the back of the building down the back stairs, and encountered Bill Shelley and Bill Lovelady on the first floor on the way out to the Houston Street dock.

The pix shows the traject of the slug from Oswald to the signal arm & then to JFK.
And it shows the window where Adams was watching (with Dorman & others), & we see the tree.



The ricochet gave us three lots of fragments.
The shower of small lead hit JFK in the back of the head, actually the right-hand-side of the back, koz he was looking right (Xrays).
The lead slug put a hole in the floor near the jump seats, & rattled around tween the driveshaft road & limo.
The full metal jacket broke in two as usual, & ended up hitting carpet tween the jump seats (CE567 CE569).

« Last Edit: October 12, 2021, 11:55:17 PM by Marjan Rynkiewicz »

Online Marjan Rynkiewicz

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Re: Perception of Reality
« Reply #114 on: October 12, 2021, 11:24:53 PM »
Here is in effect Towner frame T138, which is missing in Robin Unger's gallery. He shows T137 T139 T141 T142.
T138 & T140 are missing. And T143 never happened -- the last frame was T142 (i think).
So, here below is in effect frame T138, a printscreen from i think the Museum's online Tina footage.
Oswald's shot-1 was at Z112, say T137.
Slug hit signal arm (& fragments hit JFK) at Z113, say T138.

We know that Z113 was at T138 koz Nellie Connally is level with the end of the white painted road stripe, in the re-enactment footage, & in Tina's footage.

Sound hit Tina at Z114, say T139.
Tina hears bang at say T141.
Tina possibly had a non-voluntary startle reaction to the bang at say T143 (except that she stopped filming at T142).
Tina possibly had a voluntary fright reaction to the bang at say T145.


https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,2862.0.html
« Last Edit: October 12, 2021, 11:56:44 PM by Marjan Rynkiewicz »

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Re: Perception of Reality
« Reply #114 on: October 12, 2021, 11:24:53 PM »


Offline James Hackerott

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Re: Perception of Reality
« Reply #115 on: October 12, 2021, 11:57:35 PM »
The video clip is taken from the Secret Services reconstructions in early December. The camera car drove through Dealey Plaza – with focus on the 6th floor corner window. I’ve tried to bracket the clip from about Z133 to Z225.  Although the window set with Elsie Dorman and Vicky Adams (2 floors below and west of the SN) is in frame it is highly obscured from leaves and branches of the Live Oak. I used the 3D model for help estimating the film Z frames.




Online Charles Collins

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Re: Perception of Reality
« Reply #116 on: October 13, 2021, 12:19:57 AM »
The video clip is taken from the Secret Services reconstructions in early December. The camera car drove through Dealey Plaza – with focus on the 6th floor corner window. I’ve tried to bracket the clip from about Z133 to Z225.  Although the window set with Elsie Dorman and Vicky Adams (2 floors below and west of the SN) is in frame it is highly obscured from leaves and branches of the Live Oak. I used the 3D model for help estimating the film Z frames.



Great work James! I hadn’t considered that approach. This is further confirmation of the 3-D models and Roberdeau’s map approaches. Thanks!

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Re: Perception of Reality
« Reply #116 on: October 13, 2021, 12:19:57 AM »


Online Charles Collins

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Re: Perception of Reality
« Reply #117 on: October 13, 2021, 12:28:25 AM »
The video clip is taken from the Secret Services reconstructions in early December. The camera car drove through Dealey Plaza – with focus on the 6th floor corner window. I’ve tried to bracket the clip from about Z133 to Z225.  Although the window set with Elsie Dorman and Vicky Adams (2 floors below and west of the SN) is in frame it is highly obscured from leaves and branches of the Live Oak. I used the 3D model for help estimating the film Z frames.



This also appears to show that the view from Dorman’s window was starting to get clear of the tree about the time your clip ends (~z225). And I have read that Adams said that she saw Clint running to the limo. So it all fits. Thanks again!

Offline Dan O'meara

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Re: Perception of Reality
« Reply #118 on: October 13, 2021, 09:39:18 AM »
The video clip is taken from the Secret Services reconstructions in early December. The camera car drove through Dealey Plaza – with focus on the 6th floor corner window. I’ve tried to bracket the clip from about Z133 to Z225.  Although the window set with Elsie Dorman and Vicky Adams (2 floors below and west of the SN) is in frame it is highly obscured from leaves and branches of the Live Oak. I used the 3D model for help estimating the film Z frames.



Excellent video James.
There can be no doubt the window Adams, Styles, Dorma and Garner were looking out of is completely obscured during the time frame you've bracketed,

I'm left baffled as to Adams testimony as she states seeing both JFK and Jackie turning abruptly to face the TSBD which is not shown anywhere in the video record before z190.

Offline Andrew Mason

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Re: Perception of Reality
« Reply #119 on: October 13, 2021, 06:03:03 PM »
This also appears to show that the view from Dorman’s window was starting to get clear of the tree about the time your clip ends (~z225). And I have read that Adams said that she saw Clint running to the limo. So it all fits. Thanks again!
One problem is that Adams said that the shot occurred while the tree obscured her view.  Even using your frame numbers, that is well after z133.  You seem to ignore the large number of people who have every reason to be as reliable as Veronica Adams, who put the first shot after z186.  You are also ignoring the 1.....2..3 shot sequence.

The December 1963 Secret Service film shows quite well that the tree never completely obscured the view of JFK by Oswald in the SN and only partially obscured it for a few frames. Oswald had a completely clear view of JFK when JFK was about opposite the west corner of the TSBD, which puts him a bit past the lamppost just short of being opposite the Thornton Freeway sign:
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« Last Edit: October 13, 2021, 08:54:01 PM by Andrew Mason »

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Re: Perception of Reality
« Reply #119 on: October 13, 2021, 06:03:03 PM »