Perception of Reality

[Charles Collins]

Not if you are trying to determine what really happened.  If you are just trying to confirm a predetermined conclusion, that's fine.  But if you are trying to find what happened, you have to look at all the evidence and fit it together.  You ignore vast bodies of consistent, independent evidence.  No interpretation - just their words taken as they are given.  When 80% of the witnesses who gave evidence as to the shot pattern and said the last two were close together, closer than 1 and 2, and when another several dozen describe the shots as 1+ 2 more or 1 + a pause + 2 more you AND another 2 dozen say that JFK reacted to the first shot AND at least 18 others say that the first shot was after z186, that evidence cannot be ignored if you want to discover what really occurred.  You are ignoring that evidence.
Again, you are not standing by what the photographic record clearly shows. You are going by the evidence of one witness and interpreting the photographic record in a way that suits your conclusion.  Your confirmation bias is creating your perception of reality!

I am not ignoring, just discounting. The photographic record is what it is, period. You can try to counter with all the he said/she said stuff you can find. And it doesn’t change the photographic record.

[Jerry Organ]

that Hughes said he stopped filming - which occurs at about Zapruder frame 182 - BEFORE the first shot;

Hughes stopped filming a few times but the one you refer to (Myers places the stop at Z185) doesn't relate well to your Theory's first shot in the Z190s because Hughes wrote in a letter to his parents: "about five seconds after I quit taking pictures we heard the shots".

that Willis said his z202 photo was taken an instant after the first shot).

If Willis took his Z202 slide between shots 1 and 2 (say, Z155 and Z222), then it was taken in the midst of shots and echoing, so it could be said his slide was "simultaneous" with the shots, but not the precise moment of the first shot.

As I've explained countless times, Willis himself defined the first shot having occurred before his Z202 slide:

    "Mrs. Kennedy was likewise smiling and facing more to my side of
     the street. When the first shot was fired, her head seemed to just
     snap in that direction"

    "she was looking more to the left, which would be my side of the street.
     Then when the first shot was fired, she turned to the right toward him"


The Zapruder film shows Mrs. Kennedy turning her head to her right within one second of Z155. Willis was nearby enough to observe this (his legs are at the extreme right edge of the Z167 crop.

One has to look at all the evidence and there is no question that dozens of witnesses explicitly recalled that pattern and that the last two shots were in rapid succession.  Adams' description fits that pattern. It does not fit the other patterns but I would agree, in itself it does not clearly exclude them.

Amazing. Mason has built his Baloney Theory on cherry-picks that he presents as having God-like clear perception of the shot spanning in the midst of major distraction, shocking violence and an unprecedented historical event. And that the subsequent reconstruction in their memory is equally flawless. The same guy who's argued in a court of law on numerous occasions that eyewitness reconstruction is the most unreliable form of evidence.

Mason's confirmation bias /cherry-pick method only works with one part of the data (the part that helps his Ash Heap Theory) and fails the other witnesses (as well as the Zapruder film which show no bullet strikes in the Z190s and Z270s, where Mason's Theory places wounding "shots"). The shot spanning for, say, Z155-to-Z222-to-Z313 is 1.....2.......3. More evenly-spaced. Better accommodates the witnesses who said the shot spanning was more closer for the first two shots, was more closer for the last two, and all shots evenly-spaced.

[Charles Collins]

Hughes stopped filming a few times but the one you refer to (Myers places the stop at Z185) doesn't relate well to your Theory's first shot in the Z190s because Hughes wrote in a letter to his parents: "about five seconds after I quit taking pictures we heard the shots".

If Willis took his Z202 slide between shots 1 and 2 (say, Z155 and Z222), then it was taken in the midst of shots and echoing, so it could be said his slide was "simultaneous" with the shots, but not the precise moment of the first shot.

As I've explained countless times, Willis himself defined the first shot having occurred before his Z202 slide:

    "Mrs. Kennedy was likewise smiling and facing more to my side of
     the street. When the first shot was fired, her head seemed to just
     snap in that direction"

    "she was looking more to the left, which would be my side of the street.
     Then when the first shot was fired, she turned to the right toward him"


The Zapruder film shows Mrs. Kennedy turning her head to her right within one second of Z155. Willis was nearby enough to observe this (his legs are at the extreme right edge of the Z167 crop.

Amazing. Mason has built his Baloney Theory on cherry-picks that he presents as having God-like clear perception of the shot spanning in the midst of major distraction, shocking violence and an unprecedented historical event. And that the subsequent reconstruction in their memory is equally flawless. The same guy who's argued in a court of law on numerous occasions that eyewitness reconstruction is the most unreliable form of evidence.

Mason's confirmation bias /cherry-pick method only works with one part of the data (the part that helps his Ash Heap Theory) and fails the other witnesses (as well as the Zapruder film which show no bullet strikes in the Z190s and Z270s, where Mason's Theory places wounding "shots"). The shot spanning for, say, Z155-to-Z222-to-Z313 is 1.....2.......3. More evenly-spaced. Better accommodates the witnesses who said the shot spanning was more closer for the first two shots, was more closer for the last two, and all shots evenly-spaced.

“Mrs. Kennedy was likewise smiling and facing more to my side of
     the street. When the first shot was fired, her head seemed to just
     snap in that direction"

"she was looking more to the left, which would be my side of the street.
     Then when the first shot was fired, she turned to the right toward him"


If I remember correctly, Willis 4 was taken in the neighborhood of z133. Please correct me if I am wrong.

[Dan O'meara]

Then we heard-then we were obstructed from the
view.
Mr. BELIN. By what?
Miss ADAMS. A tree. And we heard a shot, and it was a pause, and then a
second shot, and then a third shot."

If taken verbatim, she says that “we heard-then we were obstructed…

You are so desperate.

It's clear from her WC testimony that Adams is about to talk about the shots but remembers the detail about the limo passing behind the tree, so she interrupts herself to include this detail:

"Then we heard—then we were obstructed from the view…A tree. And we heard a shot, and it was a pause, and then a second shot, and then a third shot."

This interpretation of Adams' account of the assassination is confirmed elsewhere:

2-2-02 interview with Barry Ernest recounted in The Girl On The Stairs, published 2011) "As they rounded the corner, they turned toward our building, waving and smiling. The car continued moving slowly and a tree obstructed my view. That is when I heard what I thought was a firecracker go off. As the car came back into view I saw that something was wrong and watched as Mrs. Kennedy appeared to be trying to climb out of the car. I saw a Secret Service man jump in and the car began speeding toward the triple underpass. Before it reached that I turned to Sandra and I said, 'I want to see what is going on.' [patspeer.com]

There is no doubt the limo was behind the tree for all three shots. This recieves further corroboration from Dorothy Garner:

"I recall that moments following the passing of the Presidential car I heard three loud reports which I first thought to be fireworks but only seconds later realized something had happened on the street below although at the time of the shots, the Presidential car was out of view behind a tree.
"

All we can learn from Adams' various statements is that her view of the limo was obscured for all three shots.
This covers a period of around z130 - z330.
It can tell us nothing about when the first shot occurred.

[Charles Collins]

You are so desperate.

It's clear from her WC testimony that Adams is about to talk about the shots but remembers the detail about the limo passing behind the tree, so she interrupts herself to include this detail:

"Then we heard—then we were obstructed from the view…A tree. And we heard a shot, and it was a pause, and then a second shot, and then a third shot."

This interpretation of Adams' account of the assassination is confirmed elsewhere:

2-2-02 interview with Barry Ernest recounted in The Girl On The Stairs, published 2011) "As they rounded the corner, they turned toward our building, waving and smiling. The car continued moving slowly and a tree obstructed my view. That is when I heard what I thought was a firecracker go off. As the car came back into view I saw that something was wrong and watched as Mrs. Kennedy appeared to be trying to climb out of the car. I saw a Secret Service man jump in and the car began speeding toward the triple underpass. Before it reached that I turned to Sandra and I said, 'I want to see what is going on.' [patspeer.com]

There is no doubt the limo was behind the tree for all three shots. This recieves further corroboration from Dorothy Garner:

"I recall that moments following the passing of the Presidential car I heard three loud reports which I first thought to be fireworks but only seconds later realized something had happened on the street below although at the time of the shots, the Presidential car was out of view behind a tree.
"

All we can learn from Adams' various statements is that her view of the limo was obscured for all three shots.
This covers a period of around z130 - z330.
It can tell us nothing about when the first shot occurred.

No desperation here. We have discussed three different Victoria Adams interviews, and each and every one of them associates the time of the first shot with the time that the tree begins to block her view. Based on Don Roberdeau’s map, two different 3-D models, and James Hackerott’s well done timing of the Secret Service reenactment film, the view of JFK from Adams’ window is being obstructed by z133.

[Dan O'meara]

No desperation here. We have discussed three different Victoria Adams interviews, and each and every one of them associates the time of the first shot with the time that the tree begins to block her view.

 
It's you who associates the first shot with the moment the limo passes out of sight. No-one else.
Adams couldn't be any clearer - "The car continued moving slowly and a tree obstructed my view. That is when I heard what I thought was a firecracker go off."

But have it your way.

Obviously, your early shot nonsense has been utterly destroyed elsewhere (most notably "The First Shot" thread) but here you are peddling the same old nonsense irrespective of the overwhelming evidence against your doomed theory. So, I had a quick look through "The First Shot" to pick out one piece of evidence that totally destroys your theory. There's a few I could have picked but I settled on this:

You posted this diagram of vehicle positions around z133 to bolster your argument but, as usual, it blew up in your face. In the diagram vehicle 2 is the Presidential limo, vehicle 3 is the Presidential follow-up car, vehicle 4 is the Vice-Presidential car and vehicle 5 is the Vice-Presidential follow-up car.



It is vehicles 4 and 5 we are interested in. It is clear from the diagram these vehicles are still on Houston, about to make the turn onto Elm. It should follow that the statements of the occupants of these vehicles, regarding the assassination, should reflect the position of these vehicles around the time of the first shot if your z133 first shot theory holds water.
Instead, they demonstrate, beyond any shadow of a doubt, that you are utterly wrong.
Much of what follows is based on the work of Pat Speer.

Vehicle 4 - The Vice-Presidential car

Hurchel Jacks [Driver] - "My car had just straightened up from making the left turn. I was looking directly at
                                                       the President’s car at that time. At that time I heard a shot ring out..."

Rufus Youngblood [Passenger Seat] - "The motorcade then made a left turn, and the sidewalk crowds were
                                                                  beginning to diminish in size. I observed a grassy plot to my right in back of a
                                                                  small crowd...I heard an explosion…"
                                                                  "As we were beginning to go down this incline, all of a sudden there was
                                                                  an explosive noise."
                                                                 "We had straightened on Elm now and were beginning to move easily
                                                                  down the incline in the wake of the cars ahead. Suddenly there was an
                                                                  explosive noise..."

Senator Yarborough [back left] -   “as the motorcade went down the slope of Elm Street toward the railroad
                                                               underpass, a rifle shot was heard by me; a loud blast..."

Lady Bird Johnson [back centre] -  “we were rounding a curve, going down a hill and suddenly there was a
                                                               sharp loud report..."
                                                               "...suddenly in that brilliant sunshine there was a sharp rifle shot. It came,
                                                               I thought, from over my right shoulder."

Lyndon Johnson [back right] -  "After we had proceeded a short way down Elm Street, I heard a sharp report."

Every occupant of the Vice-Presidential car is in agreement - the car had completed the turn and was making it's way down Elm at the moment of the first shot.
Every one of them.

Vehicle 5 - Vice-Presidential follow-up car

Joe Henry Rich [Driver] - “We turned off of Houston Street onto Elm Street and that was when I heard the first
                                                shot."


Cliff Carter [passenger seat]  -  "...our car had just made the left hand turn onto Elm and was right along side
                                                       of the Texas School Book Depository Building when I heard a noise which sounded
                                                       like a firecracker."

Jerry Kivett [back right] -  "As the motorcade was approximately 1/3 the way to the underpass, traveling
                                                  between 10 and 15 miles per hour, I heard a loud noise..."

Warren Taylor [back centre] -  “Our automobile had just turned a corner (the names of the streets are
                                                       unknown to me) when I heard a bang which sounded to me like a possible firecracker
                                                       —the sound coming from my right rear."

Thomas (Lem) Johns [back right] -   "We turned onto Elm Street...We were going downhill...which put the
                                                                Texas Book Depository on our right, more or less...But we were going down
                                                                this Elm Street, with my door open. I heard at least two shots.."

Every single occupant from both vehicles is in agreement - their vehicles had turned onto Elm Street. The diagram you posted shows vehicles 4 and 5 still on Houston. This is not one or two random eye-witness accounts that can be interpreted this way and that. This is 10 witnesses in two vehicles all in perfect agreement. You cannot escape this evidence.
If, as you say, you do follow where the evidence leads you how can you ignore this.

[Charles Collins]

There are conflicting accounts for every possible theory. None of them change the photographic record.