Last Second in Dallas

[Jerry Freeman]

In response to responses to... https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,3234.msg120225.html#msg120225
Because it is always amazing to read criticism [of a presentation] from someone who will never watch it

[Jerry Freeman]

Like the CTs and CT-"skeptics" who won't read the Warren Report or the visit the Sixth Floor Museum out of misguided "principle".

Thanks for the laugh there. Pitiful though it is.
For others...start at 26:35 into the video and then we have the audio--Sen Richard Russell telling President Johnson that he won't sign off on the Warren Report because he doesn't believe in a single bullet doing all that damage to two men. "I just don't believe it" Russell tells Johnson... "I don't either" said the President.
See? Even LBJ didn't believe the findings of his own commission 

[Jon Banks]

Oh well then, varmint-hunters LBJ and Russell trump the experts used by the Warren Commission and HSCA, the 2004 "Beyond the Magic Bullet" documentary and Luke and Michael Haag (NOVA 2013).

I'm sure -- in the CT and CT-"skeptic" world -- some ambulance drivers and orderlies are better able to speak on the medical aspects than, for example, the Clark Panel and HSCA Forensic Pathology Panel.

Because the military’s autopsy on JFK was botched, we’ll never be able to conclusively resolve the controversies surrounding the medical evidence (sorry but photographic evidence is no substitute for doing the autopsy or exhuming JFK’s body years later).

If the source material is garbage, all investigations that followed reached conclusions that were based on a garbage foundation.

[Martin Weidmann]

Oh well then, varmint-hunters LBJ and Russell trump the experts used by the Warren Commission and HSCA, the 2004 "Beyond the Magic Bullet" documentary and Luke and Michael Haag (NOVA 2013).

I'm sure -- in the CT and CT-"skeptic" world -- some ambulance drivers and orderlies are better able to speak on the medical aspects than, for example, the Clark Panel and HSCA Forensic Pathology Panel.

You do understand that an appeal to authority is a a fallacious argument, right?

[Bill Chapman]

Thanks for the laugh there. Pitiful though it is.
For others...start at 26:35 into the video and then we have the audio--Sen Richard Russell telling President Johnson that he won't sign off on the Warren Report because he doesn't believe in a single bullet doing all that damage to two men. "I just don't believe it" Russell tells Johnson... "I don't either" said the President.
See? Even LBJ didn't believe the findings of his own commission 

You wouldn't happen to be implying that Russell & Johnson were FMJ ammo experts, now would you GIGles.


billchapman_hunter of trolls_you_are_next

See?

 

[Martin Weidmann]

In terms of appeal to authority, how does Freeman's citing the POTUS and senior Senator Richard Russell rank?

What I referred to was an appeal to the proven expertise of people with a long-term background in their fields.

Freeman merely stated the known fact that Russell and President Johnson both did not believe the SBT. If Freeman's intention was to prove the single bullet theory wrong, than that would equally be an appeal to authority, but I don't see him doing that.

You on the other hand used your appeal to authority as proof that the official narrative is correct, which is the essence of the fallacy. It is also dishonest because subsequent investigations, after the initial one by the FBI and Warren Commission, used the same evidentiary material, which basically was only the prosecutorial case against Oswald. There is not a single item of exculpatory evidence in the WC report or the 26 volumes.

As John Banks correctly said; If the source material is garbage, all investigations that followed reached conclusions that were based on a garbage foundation.

The conclusions of the Warren Commission are not proof that the conclusions of the Warren Commission are correct!

[Jon Banks]

You wouldn't happen to be implying that Russel & Johnson were FMJ ammo experts, now would you GIGles.


billchapman_hunter of trolls_you_are_next

See?

How Much Damage Should Have Occurred?

Tests were carried out on behalf of the Warren Commission by the Department of Defense at Edgewood Arsenal in Maryland. Two experiments suggested strongly that the CE 399 bullet had not caused Connally’s wounds:

Bullets of the same type as CE 399 were fired into the wrist bones of ten human cadavers. All ten bullets were severely deformed, unlike CE 399.

One bullet was fired into a goat’s rib, and was flattened substantially more than CE 399. Another bullet was fired into a block of gelatin, and was only moderately flattened, like CE 399.

In the words of Dr Joseph Dolce, the US Army’s most senior expert in wound ballistics, “one bullet striking the President’s neck, the Governor’s chest and wrist, should be badly deformed, as our experiments at the Edgewood Arsenal proved.” Dr Dolce was not called to testify before the Warren Commission. The Edgewood Arsenal report, Wound Ballistics of 6.5–mm Mannlicher–Carcano Ammunition, was withheld from the public for ten years, and only made available as the result of a law suit under the Freedom of Information Act by the researcher Harold Weisberg.

How Much Metal Was Missing from CE 399?

According to the FBI’s ballistics expert, Robert Frazier, the CE 399 bullet weighed 158.6 grains (10.277 grammes, or 0.363 ounces). He examined three unfired bullets of the same type as the CE 399 bullet, and found that they weighed 160.85, 161.5 and 161.1 grains. Frazier pointed out that CE 399’s weight was within the normal range of intact bullets, and that “there did not necessarily have to be any weight loss to the bullet” (Warren Commission Hearings, vol.3, p.430).

Some metal was missing from the CE 399 bullet, for reasons other than the bullet striking Kennedy and Connally:

The bullet had been fired from a rifle, which would have removed approximately half a grain from the copper coating.
The FBI had taken two small samples from the bullet: one from the copper at its nose, and one from the lead at its base.
If CE 399 were the only bullet to have struck Governor Connally, it must have been the source of all the metal fragments that were deposited in his chest, thigh and wrist wounds:

Two small fragments were removed from his wrist (Warren Commission Hearings, vol.17, p.841 [Commission Exhibit 842]). The larger of the two fragments weighed 0.5 grain (Warren Commission Hearings, vol.5, p.72).

Dr Charles Gregory, who operated on Connally’s wrist, pointed out that other fragments were removed from the wrist and then mislaid: “there were two fragments of metal retrieved … the major one or ones now being missing” (Warren Commission Hearings, vol.4, p.123). Nurse Audrey Bell also recalled several missing fragments: ARRB MD 184, pp.2f.

A fragment measuring approximately 2 mm by 0.5 mm was removed from just below the skin on the thigh (Warren Commission Hearings, vol.4, p.125).

Other fragments were left in place. According to Dr Robert Shaw, who had operated on Connally, “more than three grains of metal [remained] in the wrist” (Warren Commission Hearings, vol.4, p.113).

A small fragment remained in the chest (Warren Commission Hearings, vol.6, p.111).

A flake of metal measuring approximately 2 mm by 0.2 mm remained embedded in Connally’s femur (Warren Commission Hearings, vol.4, p.125).

The pathologists who conducted President Kennedy’s autopsy were presented with the CE 399 bullet by representatives of the Warren Commission and were asked whether they thought it could have caused Connally’s injuries. Dr James Humes, the chief pathologist, replied:

I think that is most unlikely.… This missile is basically intact; its jacket appears to me to be intact, and I do not understand how it could possibly have left fragments in either of those locations. … I doubt if this missile would have left behind it any metallic fragments from its physical appearance at this time. … Metallic fragments were not removed and are still present in Governor Connally’s thigh. I can’t conceive of where they came from this missile.

(Warren Commission Hearings, vol.2, pp.374–76)

The other two pathologists, Dr J. Thornton Boswell (ibid., p.377) and Dr Pierre Finck (“there are too many fragments”: ibid., pp.381f), agreed with Dr Humes.

http://22november1963.org.uk/ce-399-magic-bullet-planted-or-genuine

[Bill Chapman]

How Much Damage Should Have Occurred?

Tests were carried out on behalf of the Warren Commission by the Department of Defense at Edgewood Arsenal in Maryland. Two experiments suggested strongly that the CE 399 bullet had not caused Connally’s wounds:

Bullets of the same type as CE 399 were fired into the wrist bones of ten human cadavers. All ten bullets were severely deformed, unlike CE 399.

One bullet was fired into a goat’s rib, and was flattened substantially more than CE 399. Another bullet was fired into a block of gelatin, and was only moderately flattened, like CE 399.

In the words of Dr Joseph Dolce, the US Army’s most senior expert in wound ballistics, “one bullet striking the President’s neck, the Governor’s chest and wrist, should be badly deformed, as our experiments at the Edgewood Arsenal proved.” Dr Dolce was not called to testify before the Warren Commission. The Edgewood Arsenal report, Wound Ballistics of 6.5–mm Mannlicher–Carcano Ammunition, was withheld from the public for ten years, and only made available as the result of a law suit under the Freedom of Information Act by the researcher Harold Weisberg.

How Much Metal Was Missing from CE 399?

According to the FBI’s ballistics expert, Robert Frazier, the CE 399 bullet weighed 158.6 grains (10.277 grammes, or 0.363 ounces). He examined three unfired bullets of the same type as the CE 399 bullet, and found that they weighed 160.85, 161.5 and 161.1 grains. Frazier pointed out that CE 399’s weight was within the normal range of intact bullets, and that “there did not necessarily have to be any weight loss to the bullet” (Warren Commission Hearings, vol.3, p.430).

Some metal was missing from the CE 399 bullet, for reasons other than the bullet striking Kennedy and Connally:

The bullet had been fired from a rifle, which would have removed approximately half a grain from the copper coating.
The FBI had taken two small samples from the bullet: one from the copper at its nose, and one from the lead at its base.
If CE 399 were the only bullet to have struck Governor Connally, it must have been the source of all the metal fragments that were deposited in his chest, thigh and wrist wounds:

Two small fragments were removed from his wrist (Warren Commission Hearings, vol.17, p.841 [Commission Exhibit 842]). The larger of the two fragments weighed 0.5 grain (Warren Commission Hearings, vol.5, p.72).

Dr Charles Gregory, who operated on Connally’s wrist, pointed out that other fragments were removed from the wrist and then mislaid: “there were two fragments of metal retrieved … the major one or ones now being missing” (Warren Commission Hearings, vol.4, p.123). Nurse Audrey Bell also recalled several missing fragments: ARRB MD 184, pp.2f.

A fragment measuring approximately 2 mm by 0.5 mm was removed from just below the skin on the thigh (Warren Commission Hearings, vol.4, p.125).

Other fragments were left in place. According to Dr Robert Shaw, who had operated on Connally, “more than three grains of metal [remained] in the wrist” (Warren Commission Hearings, vol.4, p.113).

A small fragment remained in the chest (Warren Commission Hearings, vol.6, p.111).

A flake of metal measuring approximately 2 mm by 0.2 mm remained embedded in Connally’s femur (Warren Commission Hearings, vol.4, p.125).

The pathologists who conducted President Kennedy’s autopsy were presented with the CE 399 bullet by representatives of the Warren Commission and were asked whether they thought it could have caused Connally’s injuries. Dr James Humes, the chief pathologist, replied:

I think that is most unlikely.… This missile is basically intact; its jacket appears to me to be intact, and I do not understand how it could possibly have left fragments in either of those locations. … I doubt if this missile would have left behind it any metallic fragments from its physical appearance at this time. … Metallic fragments were not removed and are still present in Governor Connally’s thigh. I can’t conceive of where they came from this missile.

(Warren Commission Hearings, vol.2, pp.374–76)

The other two pathologists, Dr J. Thornton Boswell (ibid., p.377) and Dr Pierre Finck (“there are too many fragments”: ibid., pp.381f), agreed with Dr Humes.

http://22november1963.org.uk/ce-399-magic-bullet-planted-or-genuine

No second shooter has been ID'd in Dealey
No cotton needed