Last Second in Dallas

[Richard Smith]

You are bizarrely asking me to prove the intent of a conspiracy that I do not believe happened! 

No, wrong again. I never asked you to prove anything of the kind.

When you claimed "there was undoubtedly a very real concern that WWIII could be started on a false premise that Cuba or Russia was behind the assassination"

I merely asked you how they knew that the premise was false.

And when you subsequently stated;

"So the fantasy conspirators assassinated the US president, framed Oswald, and covered up the identity of the real assassins as a pretext to start a war with Cuba or Russia but then threw in the towel within 24 hours because LBJ was not on board?"

I asked you where you got the idea from that the intention of the assassination was a pretext to start a war?

You have failed to answer both questions.

Take it up with Jon. He made the claim that there was a cover up of "a potential communist conspiracy" to "avoid a war."

Which is exactly what you said. You only added that it was a false premise, without ever being able to explain how they could have known within 48 hours that such a premise was indeed false.

Now, here's the thing; in order for them to conclude (correctly or not) that the premise was false they must have considered the possibility that the intention of the assassination was in fact a pretext to start a war. The problem with that is of course that Hoover concluded on the 24th that Oswald had been a lone gunman. So, how can you consider the act of a lone gunman was intended to start a war?

You either conclude that there was a lone gunman, in which case there is no fear for a possible war or you believe a possible conspiracy was in play with the intention to start a war, you now want to avoid.

The blocking of any kind of serious investigation into a conspiracy from the beginning, to avoid a possible war, clearly suggests that the possibility of such a conspiracy to start a war was most certainly not ruled out, which in turn means that they must have understood from day one that Oswald was not a lone gunman. Or is that too much logic for you?

So many words twisting like a pretzel.  Let's simplify.  EVEN if you want to believe that there was a premature conclusion that excluded consideration of the involvement of Russia and Cuba in the first days after the assassination, no such evidence has come to light in nearly six decades.  Other official and unofficial investigations have come to the same conclusion.  CTers have beaten the bushes for decades - and found nothing.  The US intelligence service has resources that extend beyond investigating Oswald.  Yet there is no evidence whatsoever of any involvement of Russia or Cuba.  That is the relevant point.  Whether Katzenbach was "premature" in reaching this conclusion is a rabbit hole tangent.  CTers require a conspiracy cover up to explain away their lack of evidence to support their pet theory.  The Catch-22 of dealing with JFK CTers.  We don't have the evidence because it was covered up.  The UFO line of bull.

[Martin Weidmann]

So many words twisting like a pretzel.  Let's simplify.  EVEN if you want to believe that there was a premature conclusion that excluded consideration of the involvement of Russia and Cuba in the first days after the assassination, no such evidence has come to light in nearly six decades.  Other official and unofficial investigations have come to the same conclusion.  CTers have beaten the bushes for decades - and found nothing.  The US intelligence service has resources that extend beyond investigating Oswald.  Yet there is no evidence whatsoever of any involvement of Russia or Cuba.  That is the relevant point.  Whether Katzenbach was "premature" in reaching this conclusion is a rabbit hole tangent.  CTers require a conspiracy cover up to always avoid acknowledging the lack of evidence to support their pet theory.  The Catch-22 of dealing with JFK CTers.  We don't have the evidence because it was covered up.  The UFO line of bull.

That's not a simplification, it's just the same old BS you have been posting

EVEN if you want to believe that there was a premature conclusion that excluded consideration of the involvement of Russia and Cuba in the first days after the assassination, no such evidence has come to light in nearly six decades.

Meaningless statement, given the fact that within 48 hours after the assassination they decided Oswald did it alone causing a possible conspiracy ever being seriously investigated, which explains the lack of evidence.

Other official and unofficial investigations have come to the same conclusion.

All subsequent investigations used the same evidence as the WC did. Garbage in = Garbage out

The US intelligence service has resources that extend beyond investigating Oswald.

And what motivation would the US intelligence service have to investigate beyond Oswald, when they already know what the official story is? They have nothing to gain...

Whether Katzenbach was "premature" in reaching this conclusion is a rabbit hole tangent.

Katzenback wasn't alone in reaching that conclusion. Hoover reached the same conclusion on the 24th.

High ranking Government officials concluding there was no conspiracy within 24 to 48 hours after the assassination is highly relevant. Even more so since it clearly caused a limited investigation.

CTers require a conspiracy cover up to always avoid acknowledging the lack of evidence to support their pet theory. 

BS. LBJ wanted to avoid a war, yet still did not believe Oswald acted alone. There's the cover up for you.

[Richard Smith]

That's not a simplification, it's just the same old BS you have been posting

EVEN if you want to believe that there was a premature conclusion that excluded consideration of the involvement of Russia and Cuba in the first days after the assassination, no such evidence has come to light in nearly six decades.

Meaningless statement, given the fact that within 48 hours after the assassination they decided Oswald did it alone causing a possible conspiracy ever being seriously investigated, which explains the lack of evidence.

Other official and unofficial investigations have come to the same conclusion.

All subsequent investigations used the same evidence as the WC did. Garbage in = Garbage out

The US intelligence service has resources that extend beyond investigating Oswald.

And what motivation would the US intelligence service have to investigate beyond Oswald, when they already know what the official story is? They have nothing to gain...

Whether Katzenbach was "premature" in reaching this conclusion is a rabbit hole tangent.

Katzenback wasn't alone in reaching that conclusion. Hoover reached the same conclusion on the 24th.

High ranking Government officials concluding there was no conspiracy within 24 to 48 hours after the assassination is highly relevant. Even more so since it clearly caused a limited investigation.

CTers require a conspiracy cover up to always avoid acknowledging the lack of evidence to support their pet theory. 

BS. LBJ wanted to avoid a war, yet still did not believe Oswald acted alone. There's the cover up for you.

You are stuck on the rabbit hole tangent as to whether some individual prematurely came to the conclusion that there was no conspiracy.  That point was relevant six decades ago.  This is 2021, however, and with six decades of official and unofficial investigations there is no credible evidence of the involvement of the USSR or Cuba in the assassination.   The conspiracy theorist needs a cover up to explain why they never have any evidence to support their pet theory.  The answer is always because someone has precluded its recovery.  An endless loop of lunacy.  But knock yourself out like those UFO believers who make the same claim to explain why they never have any actual evidence of little green men.

[Jon Banks]

You are stuck on the rabbit hole tangent as to whether some individual prematurely came to the conclusion that there was no conspiracy.  That point was relevant six decades ago.  This is 2021, however, and with six decades of official and unofficial investigations there is no credible evidence of the involvement of the USSR or Cuba in the assassination.   The conspiracy theorist needs a cover up to explain why they never have any evidence to support their pet theory.  The answer is always because someone has precluded its recovery.  An endless loop of lunacy.  But knock yourself out like those UFO believers who make the same claim to explain why they never have any actual evidence of little green men.

The HSCA concluded that there probably was a conspiracy.

National Security insiders from RFK to John Kerry speculated that Oswald didn't act alone.

The US government now admits that UFOs are real.

US Report Can't Explain UFOs, But Says They're Likely Real and Possibly a National Security Threat
https://www.military.com/daily-news/2021/06/25/us-report-cant-explain-ufos-says-theyre-likely-real-and-possibly-national-security-threat.html

[Martin Weidmann]

You are stuck on the rabbit hole tangent as to whether some individual prematurely came to the conclusion that there was no conspiracy.  That point was relevant six decades ago.  This is 2021, however, and with six decades of official and unofficial investigations there is no credible evidence of the involvement of the USSR or Cuba in the assassination.   The conspiracy theorist needs a cover up to explain why they never have any evidence to support their pet theory.  The answer is always because someone has precluded its recovery.  An endless loop of lunacy.  But knock yourself out like those UFO believers who make the same claim to explain why they never have any actual evidence of little green men.

You seem to be one of those people who do not feed their dog and then wonder why the animal died of starvation.

If an investigation into a possible conspiracy is blocked within 48 hours, by Hoover and Katzenbach and others concluding - probably to avoid a possible war - that there had not been a conspiracy, you can not by any stretch of the imagination credibly ask for evidence of such a possible conspiracy to be produced.

The mere fact that a possible conspiracy, involving Russia and/or Cuba, was being considered in those early days should have triggered the biggest investigation ever. The fact that it didn't, to avoid a war, indicates that no good faith effort to uncover the truth was ever made.

[Jerry Organ]

The HSCA concluded that there probably was a conspiracy.

National Security insiders from RFK to John Kerry speculated that Oswald didn't act alone.

The US government now admits that UFOs are real.

US Report Can't Explain UFOs, But Says They're Likely Real and Possibly a National Security Threat
https://www.military.com/daily-news/2021/06/25/us-report-cant-explain-ufos-says-theyre-likely-real-and-possibly-national-security-threat.html

    "The report gives no indication the UAPs' [unidentified aerial phenomena] origins are extraterrestrial."

There's a difference between acknowledging UFOs as "unidentified" (the government has records of unidentified aerial phenomena going back to the 1940s) and then taking the final step based on "gut feeling" that they're from other planets.

Same with the "conspiracy" indications coming in the weekend of the Katzenbach memo. A "communist conspiracy" the Dallas police were pulling out of their ass and the "right-wing conspiracy" the Soviet press were pulling out of their ass. There was the fear that a political-based Congressional Committee would invent and parade a "communist conspiracy" by way of McCarthyism. When Katzenbach wrote his memo, there was no reason for high-up law enforcement and justice department officials to take the next step based on "gut feeling" and declare such "conspiracy" claims were legitimate especially when all the evidence being gathered pointed exclusively to Oswald's sole guilt.

If there should have developed evidence of equal credibility that Oswald had mysterious associates who, for example, had funded him, or supplied the rifle, or drove him to work that morning, then that would be in "a complete and thorough FBI report on Oswald and the assassination" and added to "all the facts will be made public property in an orderly and responsible way".

    "Because for the very simple reason, if that was not a fact, and
     all the facts were not on the table, then it seemed to me that
     nobody was going to be satisfied, and I thought that the public
     was entitled – if there was a conspiracy, then we ought to say
     there was a conspiracy. If there were confederates at large,
     it ought to be said there were confederates at large. I knew then
     already that Oswald had been in Russia, Oswald had been in
     Mexico. Now, if you are going to conclude, as the Bureau was
     concluding that this was not part of a conspiracy, that there were
     no confederates, then you had to make that case, with all of the
     facts, absolutely persuasive. If you didn’t reveal these facts,
     somebody else was going to reveal them. Now, if there was a
     conspiracy, there was a conspiracy, and you put those facts out.
     But if you were persuaded Oswald was a lone killer, you had
     better put all of the facts out and you better not cover up anything,
     and you better say now all of the facts are going to be made public.
     That was the advice I was giving Moyers and that was the advice
     I was giving the President and that was the motivation for the
     Warren Commission. I don’t think this is artistically phrased.
     Perhaps you have never written anything that you would like to
     write better afterwards, Congressman, but I have."

          — Nicholas Katzenbach, to HSCA

[Jon Banks]

    "The report gives no indication the UAPs' [unidentified aerial phenomena] origins are extraterrestrial."

There's a difference between acknowledging UFOs as "unidentified" (the government has records of unidentified aerial phenomena going back to the 1940s) and then taking the final step based on "gut feeling" that they're from other planets.

It wasn't my intention to argue that the US government confirmed that extra-terrestrials are real. My point is, the government admits that the UFO phenomena is real and they don't rule out that it could be ET's.

So it's a little strange to call people CT'ers for speculating that the UFOs could be from other planets when no one seems to have an explanation for the source of the UAPs.

I personally believe the US government intentionally creates ambiguity around the UFO issue in order to cover their testing of new and advanced military technologies. They have admitted to doing so in the past.

1997 - C.I.A. Admits Government Lied About U.F.O. Sightings
https://www.nytimes.com/1997/08/03/us/cia-admits-government-lied-about-ufo-sightings.html

I'm not someone who thinks all the UFO reports are proof of extra-terrestrials but I don't think it's crazy or makes someone a "CT'er" to speculate that it could be.

Same with the "conspiracy" indications coming in the weekend of the Katzenbach memo. A "communist conspiracy" the Dallas police were pulling out of their ass and the "right-wing conspiracy" the Soviet press were pulling out of their ass. There was the fear that a political-based Congressional Committee would invent and parade a "communist conspiracy" by way of McCarthyism. When Katzenbach wrote his memo, there was no reason for high-up law enforcement and justice department officials to take the next step based on "gut feeling" and declare such "conspiracy" claims were legitimate especially when all the evidence being gathered pointed exclusively to Oswald's sole guilt.

Likewise, there was no reason to say "the public must be convinced that Oswald acted alone" hours after Oswald was killed, if they intended to fully investigate the case.

Let's make sure we're on the same page on this debate.


At the time of the Katzenbach memo, it was reasonable for them to assume that Oswald was guilty even though there were still some loose ends and they weren't aware that Oswald's palm print would soon be ID'd on the rifle (by Dallas PD not the FBI). Most of the criticism of the Dallas PD and the Warren Report didn't surface until after the Report was published. So there was no large constituency of people at the time of the memo, who thought Oswald might be innocent.

So why even write the memo?


Because there was a huge amount of speculation, even in the White House, that others were involved. Mountains of evidence support my view. We know about J Edgar Hoover's phone calls with LBJ that weekend. We know about RFK's conversation with CIA director, McCone. We know that high level intelligence officials in Mexico City were alarmed by reports about Oswald's trip (his meeting with KGB people and rumors that he threatened to kill JFK while in MC).

So while it was reasonable for Katzenbach and others to presume that Oswald was "guilty" 48 hours after the assassination, it was not reasonable for them to conclude that no one else was involved at that stage of the investigation. They had reasons for their suspicions about a Communist conspiracy and it wasn't limited to Oswald having lived in the USSR.

The Katzenbach Memo and Johnson's instructions to Earl Warren prove that they never intended to publicly address concerns about conspiracy in JFK's assassination by conducting a good faith investigation.

Privately, due to the information we've learned in the decades since, we know that they were very concerned about a conspiracy.

[Jerry Organ]

And you obviously keep talking out your ass like Katzenbach to the HSCA.

So you have no use for people explaining what they meant.

"The public must be satisfied that Oswald was the assassin, that he did not have confederates who are still at large, and that the evidence was such, that he would have been convicted at trial. Speculation about Oswald's motivation ought to be cut off."

Right. Such was the state of the credible evidence by Sunday. And what purpose does leaving unaddressed or un-evaluated "speculation about Oswalds motivation" (the samples Katzenbach cites were the "communist conspiracy" from the Dallas police, the "right-wing conspiracy" from the Iron Curtain press and "public speculation or Congressional hearings of the wrong sort", meaning the "gut feeling" or witch-hunt "conspiracies" the CTs engage in to this day.)

Katzenbach was supposed to say let's encourage any made-up conspiracy theory anyone comes up with?

That was #1 ON HIS LIST, no way around it, and he stresses at the end of the memo they need to put out some BS statement to "head off the people" in case they've got some wrong ideas -- ROFL

Katzenbach didn't say "head off the people". He said: "We need something to head off public speculation or Congressional hearings of the wrong sort." Not "head off the people," but hold to account "speculation .. of the wrong sort" (the sort based on cheap innuendo and with-hunts). In this current age of Republican gas-lighting, it may seem rather naive or abstract that a public official was concerned with getting out "all the facts" and "heading off" baseless conspiracy talk.

Now here's what the Katzenbach memo actually said about the public:

    "It is important that all of the facts surrounding President Kennedy’s
     Assassination be made public ... that all the facts have been told"

    "The public must be satisfied that Oswald was the assassin"

    "making public as soon as possible a complete and thorough FBI report"

    "all the facts will be made public property in an orderly and responsible way"