Last Second in Dallas

[Bill Chapman]

   Hi Jerry,   You may want to add Mrs. Kennedy's name when mentioning the Clark Panel and HSCA Forensic Pathology Panel.   No, she's not a pathologist, but what she told Theodore White during his interview with her just 7 days after the assassination about the condition of JFK's head--which is quite graphic and quite reliable--she describes a much different head wound location than the CT crowd claims--and she repeated it twice not only does she say where the head wound was, she also described how and where on the head she was trying to keep ["His] brains in".     

Jackie: 'Top, behind the forehead'

[Martin Weidmann]

 
 In the world today, while the limousine was on its way to Parkland between Dealey Plaza and Parkland Hospital, unfortunately, Mrs. Kennedy would be considered as having "tampered with evidence" because she altered the damage to the head the moment she put the piece of skull she said she saw "detach itself" back into place, and "tried to keep his brains in" as she  " kept trying to hold the top of his head down".  This is the flap of inside-out skull we can clearly see in the Zapruder film as well as two publicly released photos taken during the autopsy.    The  two pictures that show the skull flap hanging over the temple area are the back of the head photos, and the photograph of the measuring the distance from the neck to the back wound--and most copies of the back wound are cropped and do not show this.  At any rate...Mrs. Kennedy closed the hole in the head up as much as she could by putting the flap back into place since it was still connected to the scalp, so, when the president was taken into the ER and the doctors saw only part of the hole in the head--this is where the discrepancy comes from.  Bill and Gayle Newman described what they saw from 10 feet away.  The large flap of skull hanging over the temple was visible to them, and Mrs. Newman describes this during her interview with WFAA's Jay Watson.  Marilyn Sitzman said the damage "was between the eye and the ear", so she no doubt saw the inside-out flap of skull, mistaking it as a wound..  We see the top of Kennedy's head fly off  in the Zapruder, Nix and Muchmore films.  Parts of the skull landed in the grass several yards ahead of where the limousine was positioned at the time of the fatal shot.  The Harper fragment, found by Billy Harper, and a fragment found by David Burris, which was turned over to Detective R.L. Studebaker in Dallas on the day of the assassination.  Burris marked on a photograph of the infield grass where he found the skull fragment.  This fragment was flown to Washington from Dallas per document.   So, I believe that due to the loose skull  piece hanging over the temple being put back into place by Mrs. Kennedy, this is the major part of the reason for the discrepancy over the location of--and damage of the head wound. 
 
  Where people like Paul O'Conner are concerned...I saw Vincent Bugliosi question Paul O'Conner about his claim that there was no brain being in the head--or  very little of it-- and I find it difficult to believe such a thing happened when there are photographs vividly showing the brain hanging out of the massive hole in top of the head.  And I thought Vince did a good job at proving Paul O'Conner's story is impossible.

  It seems to me that conspiracy believers want to disregard people like the Newman's, Zapruder and Sitzman, and most importantly, Mrs. Kennedy.  She flat-out says the top of his head was gone and that she was holding his brains in her hands. She had the first and best view of JFK's head over anyone else that day.

Where people like Paul O'Conner are concerned...I saw Vincent Bugliosi question Paul O'Conner about his claim that there was no brain being in the head--or  very little of it-- and I find it difficult to believe such a thing happened when there are photographs vividly showing the brain hanging out of the massive hole in top of the head.  And I thought Vince did a good job at proving Paul O'Conner's story is impossible.

First of all, we can argue about what O'Connor meant when he said there was no brain in the head. If you think that he was saying there was no brain at all, I would agree that would be unlikely as it seems impossible for all brain matter to have been blasted out. However, if you think that what O'Connor really meant was that there was no complete brain to be removed, then, I believe, you would be closer to the truth. We know for a fact that the brain could not have been intact, as there was brain matter all over the limo and the police officers driving behind the limo were also covered in it. To me it seems not unreasonable to conclude that O'Connor only saw remnants of the brain and concluded that there was no sufficiently intact brain that could be removed.

Sadly, credible witnesses are not always good on the stand. The video you refer to shows O'Connor being extremely nervous, making him an easy prey for an experienced lawyer like Bugliosi. The fact remains that he told the same story on the stand as he did to the HSCA. And that's not all, his testimony is supported by others, like Tom Robinson, who was involved in the embalming of the body, which included filling up the hole in the head.

If you want to dismiss the testimony of O'Connor and others, you need at least try to explain what these men had to gain by lying so many years after the fact. O'Connor respected the order to remain silent for 14 years before he ever told his story and Tom Robinson never wanted to be in the limelight. So what motivated these men to lie?

[Martin Weidmann]

Hadn't the brain been removed when the funeral people arrived?

Good question. One would indeed expect that to be the case, but in this case it seems to me that O'Connor never performed the procedure to remove the top of the skull. 

I am speculating, but there are two reasons for that assumptions. The first one is that in order to remove the top of the cranial vault the scalp has to be cut and pulled forward. Then the skull has to be opened up with a vibrating saw. Given the state of the skull, as seen on some photographs and X-rays, I would argue that if the scalp was cut and the top of the skull was removed a large part of that skull would fall apart. When Paul O'Connor was asked, at the mock trial, if he had opened the brain he said, at about 6.35; "we didn't have to"

And secondly, there is a video in which Tom Robinson explains in detail what the hole was like that the embalmers had to work on.

[Jon Banks]

Good question. One would indeed expect that to be the case, but in this case it seems to me that O'Connor never performed the procedure to remove the top of the skull. 

I am speculating, but there are two reasons for that assumptions. The first one is that in order to remove the top of the cranial vault the scalp has to be cut and pulled forward. Then the skull has to be opened up with a vibrating saw. Given the state of the skull, as seen on some photographs and X-rays, I would argue that if the scalp was cut and the top of the skull was removed a large part of that skull would fall apart. When Paul O'Connor was asked, at the mock trial, if he had opened the brain he said, at about 6.35; "we didn't have to"

And secondly, there is a video in which Tom Robinson explains in detail what the hole was like that the embalmers had to work on.

Here's the section of the 'Last Second In Dallas' doc that discusses the headshot(s). It sounds like Kennedy lost a bunch of brain matter before he reached Parkland hospital. The Blood spatter analysis seems consistent with the trajectory of two different shots to Kennedy's head. (starts at around the 1hr and 10 minutes point).

[Martin Weidmann]

Here's the section of the 'Last Second In Dallas' doc that discusses the headshot(s). It sounds like Kennedy lost a bunch of brain matter before he reached Parkland hospital. The Blood spatter analysis seems consistent with the trajectory of two different shots to Kennedy's head. (starts at around the 1hr and 10 minutes point).

Which brings us to one of those questions a LN will never be able/willing to answer;

How can a brain be removed at autopsy from Kennedy's head, when the evidence shows that a large part of the matter had been blasted out when Kennedy was shot?

[Steve Barber]

Which brings us to one of those questions a LN will never be able/willing to answer;

How can a brain be removed at autopsy from Kennedy's head, when the evidence shows that a large part of the matter had been blasted out when Kennedy was shot?

 I'm very willing to answer it!   

 First of all, you're calling Mrs. Kennedy a liar when she said she was holding his brains in her hand. Did you ever read the interview by Theodore White that I mentioned?  She repeatedly said she "Was trying to hold the TOP OF HIS HEAD DOWN...maybe I could keep it ("his brains") in.   Like it or not, that's exactly what you're doing.

 Secondly, Even Clint Hill said"the brain was exposed" to the Warren Commission.


 Thirdly, According to Dr. Michael Baden--and you can read this in the End Notes of Reclaiming History by Bugliosi--that there wasn't that much of the brain missing. I can't recall exactly at the moment, but he said it was only a few ouces of the actual brain that was missing.

 The matter that landed on Hargis and Martin did not "Cover them". You are exaggerating.  All Martin testified that was on him was blood droplets and small particles of brain or human flesh.  They were on the right side of his helmet, and the shoulder of his uniform, and tiny droplets of blood on  the cowling of his motorcycle.  It's in his Warren Commission testimony.   

 Hargis, said that he was struck with "blood and brain and kind of a bloody water".  In the Zapruder film--and this is something no one ever mentions--the fine mist from the head explosion that surrounds the head of JFK travels up and is clearly captured in the breeze and is immediately  blown to the rear onto the officers and what Clint Hill now says landed on him.  And it is this fine mist with minute particles, the bloody water and blood, and small particles of brain that landed on Hargis, Martin and Clint Hill as he ran to catch the limousine.  Its in the clearest versions of the Zapruder film.  All one has to do is look at it.


 With Paul O'Conner...I think you should read Reclaiming History, and watch and listen to his testimony during the Mock Trial with Vince Bugliosi and Gerry Spence. 

  The heaviest of the head matter went forward onto the Connallys, Greer, Kellerman, the interior of the limousine, seats, the inside side panels side rails, windshield, sun visors (both sides) hood, and minute particles on the trunk lid.   This is all noted in the notes and sketches by FBI agent Robert Frazier who had the tediosu job along with another (unamed) agent of sifting through every inch of the limousine, inside and out.  The afore mentioned skull fragments i.e. the Burros and Harper fragments were both found southwest in the grass-- the Burris fragment to the immediate east of the manhole cover, the Harper fragment nearer to the underpass.  Harper marked on a map of Dealey Plaza the approximate location of the fragment.  The fragment that flew off Kennedy's head were estimated to be traveling at 80MPH by Dr. John Lattimer. 

[Martin Weidmann]

I'm very willing to answer it!   

 First of all, you're calling Mrs. Kennedy a liar when she said she was holding his brains in her hand. Did you ever read the interview by Theodore White that I mentioned?  She repeatedly said she "Was trying to hold the TOP OF HIS HEAD DOWN...maybe I could keep it ("his brains") in.   Like it or not, that's exactly what you're doing.

 Secondly, Even Clint Hill said"the brain was exposed" to the Warren Commission.


 Thirdly, According to Dr. Michael Baden--and you can read this in the End Notes of Reclaiming History by Bugliosi--that there wasn't that much of the brain missing. I can't recall exactly at the moment, but he said it was only a few ouces of the actual brain that was missing.

 The matter that landed on Hargis and Martin did not "Cover them". You are exaggerating.  All Martin testified that was on him was blood droplets and small particles of brain or human flesh.  They were on the right side of his helmet, and the shoulder of his uniform, and tiny droplets of blood on  the cowling of his motorcycle.  It's in his Warren Commission testimony.   

 Hargis, said that he was struck with "blood and brain and kind of a bloody water".  In the Zapruder film--and this is something no one ever mentions--the fine mist from the head explosion that surrounds the head of JFK travels up and is clearly captured in the breeze and is immediately  blown to the rear onto the officers and what Clint Hill now says landed on him.  And it is this fine mist with minute particles, the bloody water and blood, and small particles of brain that landed on Hargis, Martin and Clint Hill as he ran to catch the limousine.  Its in the clearest versions of the Zapruder film.  All one has to do is look at it.


 With Paul O'Conner...I think you should read Reclaiming History, and watch and listen to his testimony during the Mock Trial with Vince Bugliosi and Gerry Spence. 

  The heaviest of the head matter went forward onto the Connallys, Greer, Kellerman, the interior of the limousine, seats, the inside side panels side rails, windshield, sun visors (both sides) hood, and minute particles on the trunk lid.   This is all noted in the notes and sketches by FBI agent Robert Frazier who had the tediosu job along with another (unamed) agent of sifting through every inch of the limousine, inside and out.  The afore mentioned skull fragments i.e. the Burros and Harper fragments were both found southwest in the grass-- the Burris fragment to the immediate east of the manhole cover, the Harper fragment nearer to the underpass.  Harper marked on a map of Dealey Plaza the approximate location of the fragment.  The fragment that flew off Kennedy's head were estimated to be traveling at 80MPH by Dr. John Lattimer.

You are not answering the question. Instead you are minimizing and misrepresenting the evidence.

First of all, you're calling Mrs. Kennedy a liar when she said she was holding his brains in her hand.

What exactly is this remark by Mrs. Kennedy supposed to prove? Please describe exactly what Mrs. Kennedy meant by that comment and please explain how I am calling her a liar by saying that a large part of the brain matter was blown out of Kennedy's head.

Secondly, Even Clint Hill said"the brain was exposed" to the Warren Commission.

Again, what do you think this remark proves? Hill said he saw a big hole in the President's head, so naturally the brain would be exposed, but do you really think Hill was able to have a closer look while hanging on the trunk of the limo?

Thirdly, According to Dr. Michael Baden--and you can read this in the End Notes of Reclaiming History by Bugliosi--that there wasn't that much of the brain missing. I can't recall exactly at the moment, but he said it was only a few ouces of the actual brain that was missing.

Baden wasn't present at Parkland Hospital and/or the autopsy. His opinion is of little consequence.

With Paul O'Conner...I think you should read Reclaiming History, and watch and listen to his testimony during the Mock Trial with Vince Bugliosi and Gerry Spence. 

I'm not really interested in Bugliosi's opinion. And I did watch O'Connor's testimony during the mock trial. In fact, the video is posted in my previous post. I'm not sure what you think I am supposed to see. If you want to call O'Connor, and others, a liar, you should at least try to answer my question about what his/their motivation would have been to lie.

The heaviest of the head matter went forward onto the Connallys, Greer, Kellerman, the interior of the limousine, seats, the inside side panels side rails, windshield, sun visors (both sides) hood, and minute particles on the trunk lid.   This is all noted in the notes and sketches by FBI agent Robert Frazier who had the tediosu job along with another (unamed) agent of sifting through every inch of the limousine, inside and out.

Frazier only examined the limo, by itself, at the Secret Service garage in Washington. There is no question that brain matter was scattered over the car and when one views the limo alone it can easily seem that most of the matter went forward, but without examining the Secret Service car and the two motorcycles that would be a conclusion based upon incomplete. information.

[Steve Barber]

What exactly is this remark by Mrs. Kennedy supposed to prove? Please describe exactly what Mrs. Kennedy meant by that comment and please explain how I am calling her a liar by saying that a large part of the brain matter was blown out of Kennedy's head.

  You say that I am "misrepresenting" the evidence?  Look what you just did.  You didn't include the things I said *AFTER* I said what you quoted above, which answers your question.  The brain was coming out of the hole on the top of his head.  Not the rear or side of the head as conspiracy believers contend-- the TOP, just as the autopsy photos of the top of the head reveal, as well as what we see flying off the top of JFK's head in the 3 films I mentioned.

Secondly, Even Clint Hill said"the brain was exposed" to the Warren Commission.

Again, what do you think this remark proves? Hill said he saw a big hole in the President's head, so naturally the brain would be exposed, but do you really think Hill was able to have a closer look while hanging on the trunk of the limo?

Again, you're misrepresenting the facts, not I.   Hill didn't remain on the trunk of the car the entire trip to Parkland.  He climbed into the back seat on the way to Parkland. Photographs, and testimony prove this.  This is how Hill could have easily had a closer look once he was inside the car.  There's even one picture taken on Stemmons where he is standing on the seat looking down into the seat compartment.  It's included in the book "The Torch Is Passed".  Look at all the pictures and film showing Hill inside the vehicle.  So, in answer to your question, it proves that the brain--other than the right hemisphere being badly damaged was intact and still in the head.

Thirdly, According to Dr. Michael Baden--and you can read this in the End Notes of Reclaiming History by Bugliosi--that there wasn't that much of the brain missing. I can't recall exactly at the moment, but he said it was only a few ouces of the actual brain that was missing.

Baden wasn't present at Parkland Hospital and/or the autopsy. His opinion is of little consequence.

 He was a pathologist--same as Dr. Wecht--as well as a member of the panel of experts who re-examined the autopsy photos and other medical records for the HSCA.  Therefore, he would have been able to determine from  the records kept during the autopsy of JFK how much brain tissue was blasted off the brain.  You cannot overlook Biden's credentials, nor what he stated he saw.

With Paul O'Conner...I think you should read Reclaiming History, and watch and listen to his testimony during the Mock Trial with Vince Bugliosi and Gerry Spence.  

I'm not really interested in Bugliosi's opinion. And I did watch O'Connor's testimony during the mock trial. In fact, the video is posted in my previous post. I'm not sure what you think I am supposed to see. If you want to call O'Connor, and others, a liar, you should at least try to answer my question about what his/their motivation would have been to lie.

  I'm not surprised that you're not interested in Bugliosi's opinion. The reason I said you should watch Bugliosi questioning O'Conner was so you can hear O'Conner's answers to Bugliosi's responses to O'Conner's claims.  And the reason I believe that a lot of the people who have come forward (those discovered by David Lifton especially) saw a chance to receive attention by the media and conspiracy believers.  Some of them are outrageous stories.  People having an opportunity of seeing their names up in lights will go to any lengths sometimes, to keep --in this case--the "conspiracy" going.  It's very unfortunate.


The heaviest of the head matter went forward onto the Connallys, Greer, Kellerman, the interior of the limousine, seats, the inside side panels side rails, windshield, sun visors (both sides) hood, and minute particles on the trunk lid.   This is all noted in the notes and sketches by FBI agent Robert Frazier who had the tediosu job along with another (unamed) agent of sifting through every inch of the limousine, inside and out.

Frazier only examined the limo, by itself, at the Secret Service garage in Washington. There is no question that brain matter was scattered over the car and when one views the limo alone it can easily seem that most of the matter went forward, but without examining the Secret Service car and the two motorcycles that would be a conclusion based upon incomplete. information.
[/quote]

    According to this Frazier interview on Youtube, Frazier was with two other men: