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Author Topic: A Game-Changing Document  (Read 10342 times)

Offline Dan O'meara

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A Game-Changing Document
« on: December 19, 2021, 03:23:24 AM »
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From Barry Krusch's "Impossible: The Case Against Lee Harvey Oswald":

"When Day arrived at City Hall, he completed the earliest known document logging the discovery of this evidence (a Crime Scene Search [CSS] form from the Dallas Identification Bureau written by Lieutenant Day dated November 22, 1963, submitted between 1:30 pm and 2:15 pm CST, within two hours of the assassination). This document, which at first glance appears innocuous enough, turns out to be one of the most critical documents Kennedy assassination research has ever unearthed, a document whose first known appearance (to this author) was in the book Searching The Shadows by Steven Airhart, published in 1993 (this document can also be found in he Dallas Municipal Archives, Box 9, Folder 4, Item 31)."



The ramifications of this document are so staggering it's hard to know where to begin so I'll kick off with the basics. The document is dated 11-22-63, the day of the assassination. The time is given as "1.30 & 2.15", there is also a hint of the letter "P", presumably indicating "PM". The signatures of the officers submitting the evidence are "J C Day" and "R L Studebaker" (written underneath the signatures - "Dallas Police Dpt")
Now things start to get weird. The evidence being submitted is given as:

"From 6th floor Texas Book Depository
1  6.5 [?] action rifle #2766
2  Spent hulls from 6th floor window."


3 hulls are found on the 6th floor but only two are submitted. There are a number of problems with this, not least of which is that, according to the testimonies of Day, Fritz and R M Sims, the 3 hulls were given to Det. Sims at the scene who had possession of them until later that day. This means that, at around 2:15 pm that day there were two sets of shells - 3 with Sims and 2 submitted by Day as evidence.
Moving on, for now, the receiving officer is given as "Charles T Brown Jr" underneath which is written "Spec. Agent, FBI, Dallas". Even though the heading of the document reveals it is a Dallas Police Department document, it is an FBI man receiving the evidence. Even stranger is the note at the bottom:

"Vince Drain also present - actually took possession of all the evidence."

Krusch makes the point that, during his testimony, Day reveals that he is driven from the TSBD with the evidence by FBI SA Bardwell Odum, the evidence is submitted to FBI SA Charles Brown and is taken possession of by FBI SA Drain. At 2:15 pm that day the FBI had no jurisdiction yet here they are completely controlling the evidence.

And if that wasn't enough. The "Nature of the Offence" is given as "Murder", clearly a reference to the assassination of JFK (note, at the time the evidence was submitted it was known that JFK had died - hence "Murder")
When we look at "Suspect" we see written the name "Lee Harvey Oswald"!!
Let that sink in a minute.
At 2:15 pm Lee Harvey Oswald was given as the sole suspect for the assassination of JFK.
At 2:15 pm, as far as the Dallas Police Department were concerned, Lee Harvey Oswald was in the frame for the murder of the President.
He'd only been arrested 35 minutes earlier!

« Last Edit: December 19, 2021, 03:24:16 AM by Dan O'meara »

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A Game-Changing Document
« on: December 19, 2021, 03:23:24 AM »


Online Charles Collins

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Re: A Game-Changing Document
« Reply #1 on: December 19, 2021, 04:07:11 AM »
From Barry Krusch's "Impossible: The Case Against Lee Harvey Oswald":

"When Day arrived at City Hall, he completed the earliest known document logging the discovery of this evidence (a Crime Scene Search [CSS] form from the Dallas Identification Bureau written by Lieutenant Day dated November 22, 1963, submitted between 1:30 pm and 2:15 pm CST, within two hours of the assassination). This document, which at first glance appears innocuous enough, turns out to be one of the most critical documents Kennedy assassination research has ever unearthed, a document whose first known appearance (to this author) was in the book Searching The Shadows by Steven Airhart, published in 1993 (this document can also be found in he Dallas Municipal Archives, Box 9, Folder 4, Item 31)."



The ramifications of this document are so staggering it's hard to know where to begin so I'll kick off with the basics. The document is dated 11-22-63, the day of the assassination. The time is given as "1.30 & 2.15", there is also a hint of the letter "P", presumably indicating "PM". The signatures of the officers submitting the evidence are "J C Day" and "R L Studebaker" (written underneath the signatures - "Dallas Police Dpt")
Now things start to get weird. The evidence being submitted is given as:

"From 6th floor Texas Book Depository
1  6.5 [?] action rifle #2766
2  Spent hulls from 6th floor window."


3 hulls are found on the 6th floor but only two are submitted. There are a number of problems with this, not least of which is that, according to the testimonies of Day, Fritz and R M Sims, the 3 hulls were given to Det. Sims at the scene who had possession of them until later that day. This means that, at around 2:15 pm that day there were two sets of shells - 3 with Sims and 2 submitted by Day as evidence.
Moving on, for now, the receiving officer is given as "Charles T Brown Jr" underneath which is written "Spec. Agent, FBI, Dallas". Even though the heading of the document reveals it is a Dallas Police Department document, it is an FBI man receiving the evidence. Even stranger is the note at the bottom:

"Vince Drain also present - actually took possession of all the evidence."

Krusch makes the point that, during his testimony, Day reveals that he is driven from the TSBD with the evidence by FBI SA Bardwell Odum, the evidence is submitted to FBI SA Charles Brown and is taken possession of by FBI SA Drain. At 2:15 pm that day the FBI had no jurisdiction yet here they are completely controlling the evidence.

And if that wasn't enough. The "Nature of the Offence" is given as "Murder", clearly a reference to the assassination of JFK (note, at the time the evidence was submitted it was known that JFK had died - hence "Murder")
When we look at "Suspect" we see written the name "Lee Harvey Oswald"!!
Let that sink in a minute.
At 2:15 pm Lee Harvey Oswald was given as the sole suspect for the assassination of JFK.
At 2:15 pm, as far as the Dallas Police Department were concerned, Lee Harvey Oswald was in the frame for the murder of the President.
He'd only been arrested 35 minutes earlier!

The document is dated 11/27/63.   :-\

Offline Gerry Down

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Re: A Game-Changing Document
« Reply #2 on: December 19, 2021, 04:31:41 AM »
The document is dated 11/27/63.   :-\

I suspected this. The writer was just guessing the time of 2:15pm.

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Re: A Game-Changing Document
« Reply #2 on: December 19, 2021, 04:31:41 AM »


Offline Jerry Freeman

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Re: A Game-Changing Document
« Reply #3 on: December 19, 2021, 03:58:23 PM »
 
The document is dated 11/27/63.   
If you look at all the other '2's and '7's that would be questionable. Also...why wait five days to write a report like this? So called evidence was already processed in Wash DC on the 23rd.
The note still reveals that just two shells are mentioned and then that wonky chain of evidence could hardly stand up in any kangaroo court.
Even so, this was announced on KBOX radio at @2:00 PM Nov 22 1963---
Quote
Detective J D Tippit along with his partner M N McDonald [tipped off by an usher at the Texas Theater] fought with a man...believed to be the assassin of [the president]...they bravely entered with guns drawn....two shots were fired.. Tippit fired into the air...[suspect] shot Tippit killing him..the man was arrested and believed to be the prime suspect in the assassination...
They had their man ::)

Online Charles Collins

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Re: A Game-Changing Document
« Reply #4 on: December 19, 2021, 05:37:22 PM »
  If you look at all the other '2's and '7's that would be questionable. Also...why wait five days to write a report like this? So called evidence was already processed in Wash DC on the 23rd.
The note still reveals that just two shells are mentioned and then that wonky chain of evidence could hardly stand up in any kangaroo court.
Even so, this was announced on KBOX radio at @2:00 PM Nov 22 1963---They had their man ::)

Either a 2 or a 7, no matter which way one chooses to interpret it, it makes sense. This is because this form appears to be something similar to what I would call a letter of transmittal. The purpose of such a document is to record the transfer of the items from one entity to another. In this case it appears to be the transfer of the items listed on the form from the DPD to the FBI. These items were in fact transferred to the FBI on both dates (11/22/63 and 11/27/63). They were returned to the DPD (on 11/24/63, iirc) after the initial FBI examination. Subsequently, mostly due to the murder of LHO later in the day on 11/24/63, the FBI was given all of the evidence. The second transfer of these items from the DPD to the FBI took place in the early hours of 11/27/63.

Either way, the assumptions and jumping to conclusions such as two sets of shells, and that the FBI had possession of these items at 2:15pm on 11/22/63 are ridiculous.

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Re: A Game-Changing Document
« Reply #4 on: December 19, 2021, 05:37:22 PM »


Offline Dan O'meara

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Re: A Game-Changing Document
« Reply #5 on: December 20, 2021, 04:07:18 AM »
Either a 2 or a 7, no matter which way one chooses to interpret it, it makes sense. This is because this form appears to be something similar to what I would call a letter of transmittal. The purpose of such a document is to record the transfer of the items from one entity to another.

This is not a "letter of transmittal", if such a thing exists.
It is the document used when "specimens" from a crime scene are first admitted/submitted into evidence.

Quote
In this case it appears to be the transfer of the items listed on the form from the DPD to the FBI. These items were in fact transferred to the FBI on both dates (11/22/63 and 11/27/63). They were returned to the DPD (on 11/24/63, iirc) after the initial FBI examination.

If this were indeed a letter of transmittal it would include all the evidence being transferred to the FBI at that time but it does not.
As you say, the evidence had already been handed over to the FBI on the 22nd (with no letter of transmittal), and had been thoroughly tested in the laboratories in Washington. So everyone knew what evidence this was which means, if this is just a letter of transmittal,  there was no need to helpfully point out that this evidence was "from 6th floor Texas School Book Depository" on the document. Everyone knew where it came from. There was no need to note the hulls came "from 6th floor window. This has already been established and has nothing to do with the transferral.
Indeed, there is no need to point out the location of this crime was "Elm + Houston", there is no need to point out the nature of the crime is "Murder" and that it occurred on "11-22-63". The FBI probably knew this already.
All these details are required if these are items being submitted as evidence from a crime scene but totally unnecessary if it is simply the transfer of evidence the FBI has already tested and already has documentation for.

Where are the "Q" numbers already assigned to the shells?
Where is the "K" number already assigned to the rifle?
They're not on this document because they are yet to be assigned to these pieces of evidence.

Why, after the signatures of Day and Studebaker, must it be noted that this evidence was "from scene"?
Is it in case the FBI had forgotten where it came from or is it because this evidence had literally just come from the scene of the crime?

We can be certain that this is not a "letter of transmittal".
It is the submission into evidence of items related to the crime in question.

Quote
Either way, the assumptions and jumping to conclusions such as two sets of shells, and that the FBI had possession of these items at 2:15pm on 11/22/63 are ridiculous.

It is definitely a source of frustration that Day writes the number "2" in different ways - one with a loop at the bottom and one without. The following is a close up of the digit in question:



Is it a two or a seven? Note at the bottom of the digit a "tail". Here is the number "7" from the document:



Note, there is no "tail" at the bottom. Here is a different number "2" from the date assigned to the "Nature of Offence":



Note the "tail" at the bottom. Certainly more pronounced but it is clear to see, the digit under question is a "2" and not a "7". In the CSS document below (again dealing with the submission of items into evidence) we see Day's penchant for using different types of "2" and we also see more examples of the number "7", without the "tail":



This document is an example of the logging of evidence, as is the document in the OP.
I would be interested to see another example of a letter of transmittal.

Offline Mitch Todd

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Re: A Game-Changing Document
« Reply #6 on: December 20, 2021, 05:04:02 AM »
This is not a "letter of transmittal", if such a thing exists.
It is the document used when "specimens" from a crime scene are first admitted/submitted into evidence.

If this were indeed a letter of transmittal it would include all the evidence being transferred to the FBI at that time but it does not.
As you say, the evidence had already been handed over to the FBI on the 22nd (with no letter of transmittal), and had been thoroughly tested in the laboratories in Washington. So everyone knew what evidence this was which means, if this is just a letter of transmittal,  there was no need to helpfully point out that this evidence was "from 6th floor Texas School Book Depository" on the document. Everyone knew where it came from. There was no need to note the hulls came "from 6th floor window. This has already been established and has nothing to do with the transferral.
Indeed, there is no need to point out the location of this crime was "Elm + Houston", there is no need to point out the nature of the crime is "Murder" and that it occurred on "11-22-63". The FBI probably knew this already.
All these details are required if these are items being submitted as evidence from a crime scene but totally unnecessary if it is simply the transfer of evidence the FBI has already tested and already has documentation for.

Where are the "Q" numbers already assigned to the shells?
Where is the "K" number already assigned to the rifle?
They're not on this document because they are yet to be assigned to these pieces of evidence.

Why, after the signatures of Day and Studebaker, must it be noted that this evidence was "from scene"?
Is it in case the FBI had forgotten where it came from or is it because this evidence had literally just come from the scene of the crime?

We can be certain that this is not a "letter of transmittal".
It is the submission into evidence of items related to the crime in question.

It is definitely a source of frustration that Day writes the number "2" in different ways - one with a loop at the bottom and one without. The following is a close up of the digit in question:



Is it a two or a seven? Note at the bottom of the digit a "tail". Here is the number "7" from the document:



Note, there is no "tail" at the bottom. Here is a different number "2" from the date assigned to the "Nature of Offence":



Note the "tail" at the bottom. Certainly more pronounced but it is clear to see, the digit under question is a "2" and not a "7". In the CSS document below (again dealing with the submission of items into evidence) we see Day's penchant for using different types of "2" and we also see more examples of the number "7", without the "tail":



This document is an example of the logging of evidence, as is the document in the OP.
I would be interested to see another example of a letter of transmittal.
This is a better, larger scan courtesy of the folks at UNT:

https://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth338676/m1/1/?q=crime%20scene%20section%20form
« Last Edit: December 20, 2021, 05:05:09 AM by Mitch Todd »

Online Charles Collins

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Re: A Game-Changing Document
« Reply #7 on: December 20, 2021, 07:08:06 PM »
This is not a "letter of transmittal", if such a thing exists.
It is the document used when "specimens" from a crime scene are first admitted/submitted into evidence.

If this were indeed a letter of transmittal it would include all the evidence being transferred to the FBI at that time but it does not.
As you say, the evidence had already been handed over to the FBI on the 22nd (with no letter of transmittal), and had been thoroughly tested in the laboratories in Washington. So everyone knew what evidence this was which means, if this is just a letter of transmittal,  there was no need to helpfully point out that this evidence was "from 6th floor Texas School Book Depository" on the document. Everyone knew where it came from. There was no need to note the hulls came "from 6th floor window. This has already been established and has nothing to do with the transferral.
Indeed, there is no need to point out the location of this crime was "Elm + Houston", there is no need to point out the nature of the crime is "Murder" and that it occurred on "11-22-63". The FBI probably knew this already.
All these details are required if these are items being submitted as evidence from a crime scene but totally unnecessary if it is simply the transfer of evidence the FBI has already tested and already has documentation for.

Where are the "Q" numbers already assigned to the shells?
Where is the "K" number already assigned to the rifle?
They're not on this document because they are yet to be assigned to these pieces of evidence.

Why, after the signatures of Day and Studebaker, must it be noted that this evidence was "from scene"?
Is it in case the FBI had forgotten where it came from or is it because this evidence had literally just come from the scene of the crime?

We can be certain that this is not a "letter of transmittal".
It is the submission into evidence of items related to the crime in question.

It is definitely a source of frustration that Day writes the number "2" in different ways - one with a loop at the bottom and one without. The following is a close up of the digit in question:



Is it a two or a seven? Note at the bottom of the digit a "tail". Here is the number "7" from the document:



Note, there is no "tail" at the bottom. Here is a different number "2" from the date assigned to the "Nature of Offence":



Note the "tail" at the bottom. Certainly more pronounced but it is clear to see, the digit under question is a "2" and not a "7". In the CSS document below (again dealing with the submission of items into evidence) we see Day's penchant for using different types of "2" and we also see more examples of the number "7", without the "tail":



This document is an example of the logging of evidence, as is the document in the OP.
I would be interested to see another example of a letter of transmittal.

Letters of transmittal are very common in the business world. I have processed thousands of them over the years. They are typically form letters in which one simply fills in the blanks. I don’t know whether or not the DPD had anything specifically named a letter of transmittal back in 1963. What I said was this form “appears to be something similar to what I would call a letter of transmittal”. The 1963 DPD was not a commercial business entity, but rather a governmental entity which likely used their own custom made forms. It appears to me that they chose to use that particular form to document the transfer of the items to the FBI on 11/27/63. Thanks to Mitch Todd for the link to the better scan it can be clearly seen that the date is most definitely, without question, 11/27/63.
You can continue to believe whatever your heart desires. But in my opinion what you have posted is pure nonsense.

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Re: A Game-Changing Document
« Reply #7 on: December 20, 2021, 07:08:06 PM »