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Author Topic: Why classify information?  (Read 17712 times)

Offline Jerry Organ

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Re: Why classify information?
« Reply #64 on: January 22, 2022, 04:19:18 PM »
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Yeah right.... and he was still looking up at the the fire escape of the TSBD which was roughly halfway on Houston.  :D

The TSBD building is a 100 by 100 foot square. So, if Barnett only ran 20 foot, he didn't even come close to the back of the building.

And nobody said he was running 20 feet in front of the building.

Isn't "20 feet pass the front of the building" what you meant by: "He then ran about 20 foot down Houston and watched the fire escape."

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Might I suggest you read his actual testimony before posting.

Mr. LIEBELER - What did you do when you concluded that the shots were coming from that building?
Mr. BARNETT - I ran to the back of the building.
Mr. LIEBELER - Ran down Houston Street?
Mr. BARNETT - Yes, sir.

Mr. BARNETT - I went 20 foot past the building still on Houston, looking up. I could see the whole back of the building and also the east side of the building.

You seem to interpret that as "Barnett didn't get any further, on Houston, than about 20 foot from the front corner of the building".

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Not that it matters much, because nothing that Barnett says in his testimony proves that Styles and Adams left the 4th floor later, as foolishly claimed by Jack Nessan.

Styles said it more like minutes than seconds, and that the pair first went to the passenger elevator. BTW, if Adams and Styles literally exited the building before Truly and Baker made it to the back stairs, it means the ladies simply used the stairs before Oswald could have been on them.

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Re: Why classify information?
« Reply #64 on: January 22, 2022, 04:19:18 PM »


Offline Jack Nessan

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Re: Why classify information?
« Reply #65 on: January 22, 2022, 05:37:11 PM »
Your arguments are getting more desperate with every post you write. Yes the door is part of the back of the building and yes Barnett was aware of it, but as he clearly says in his testimony, it's around the corner

Mr. LIEBELER - There is a door in the back of the Texas School Book Depository. Does it face on Houston or around the corner?
Mr. BARNETT - It is around the corner from Houston Street.

But Barnett stayed on Houston;

Mr. BARNETT - I went 20 foot past the building still on Houston, looking up.

Do you really think Barnett could see around the corner of the building, from Houston?

Where did I say it was?

I'm not mistaking anything and of course it matters who gathered the evidence! It's beyond belief that you can be so naive.
The FBI is an investigative body. The Secret Service and the White House aren't. The people who searched the limo, before Frazier could do a forensic investigation of what was effectively a crime scene, had no business there. All they did was contaminate the crime scene and destroyed the chain of custody by not documenting where the two fragments were found. A defense lawyer would have a field day with this kind of incompentence.

Nobody is saying that Frazier needed to be present for every piece of evidence that is gathered. That would indeed be a ridiculous expectation. That's why the chain of custody rules exist. The main purpose is to authenticate evidence and eliminate possible doubts about misconduct by law enforcement officers. So, no matter how often you say that there was no problem with the chain of evidence, there cleary was, because we have no way of knowing where those two fragments actually came from. You can assume all you want that the men who searched the limo found the fragments there, but that doesn't make it automatically true.

So, I repeat my question; Where does Frazier say when the bullets were fired by that rifle?

No---He most definitely could see what he said he could see which he said he could see the back door.

Barnett also traversed the back of the building and looked south along the West side of the building.

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No---12:36 is not 12:37

Still trying to use your own times in your own personalized timeline.

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No it does not matter. The amount of training required to pick up a piece of lead and hand it to an FBI Agent must be incredible. 

Remember this is 1963 not 2022. The science of criminology was rudimentary at best with blood tests, fingerprints, and ballistic matches. Once again watch the old cop shows if there is a question about how it all worked.

The crime scene was the blood and gore of JFK's wounds. The FBI also picked up lead fragments. They definitely were present in the car and also in his brain and also in the windshield. Were you maybe thinking the rest of the bullet fragments were vaporized by aliens? Are all things possible in conspiracy land?

The Chain of custody is intact. The bullet and fragments were matched to the rifle found on the 6th floor of the TSBD, to the exclusion of all other firearms. Howard Bennan saw the rifle being fired during the assassination.

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All through his testimony. That is what Frazier means when he matches them. Are you still thinking JFK was killed earlier and the Dallas Motorcade was an elaborate ruse to hide that fact. A believer in the Zapruder Film was a fake?


Offline Martin Weidmann

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Re: Why classify information?
« Reply #66 on: January 22, 2022, 06:39:21 PM »
Isn't "20 feet pass the front of the building" what you meant by: "He then ran about 20 foot down Houston and watched the fire escape."

Isn't what I said clear enough for you? Barnett was standing on the corner of Houston and Elm as the motorcade passed by. When he heard the shots he ran 20 foor past the building in the direction of the back of the building, and thus stopping where roughly the fire escape was situated.

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Mr. LIEBELER - What did you do when you concluded that the shots were coming from that building?
Mr. BARNETT - I ran to the back of the building.
Mr. LIEBELER - Ran down Houston Street?
Mr. BARNETT - Yes, sir.

Mr. BARNETT - I went 20 foot past the building still on Houston, looking up. I could see the whole back of the building and also the east side of the building.

You seem to interpret that as "Barnett didn't get any further, on Houston, than about 20 foot from the front corner of the building".


That's exactly what I mean, because the fire escape was on the Houston side of the building. There would be no point for him to pass the building all together by some 20 foot and then look at the fire escape. He said he ran 20 foot past the building and the building is 100 foot long, so how far do you think he got? From that position he could watch not only the fire escape but also both sides of the street, which means that he could also see somebody coming onto Houston from behind the TSBD.

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Styles said it more like minutes than seconds, and that the pair first went to the passenger elevator. BTW, if Adams and Styles literally exited the building before Truly and Baker made it to the back stairs, it means the ladies simply used the stairs before Oswald could have been on them.

Styles said many different things over time.

What I have been saying all along is that Adams and Styles must have gone down before Truly and Baker made it to the stairs on the first floor. There is no other explanation, if you consider all the available evidence. And Oswald or anybody else could indeed have been behind them, at least in theory. In the reconstruction I made a while back, that's exactly the conclusion I came to. Which is also why I don't understand that the WC left Adams (as the only witness) out of the reconstruction and tried to discredit her with an obvious misinterpretation of where she saw Shelley and Lovelady.

Adams wasn't the WC's problem. Dorothy Garner was! She followed the girls out of the office and heard them going down the wooden stairs. She then saw Truly and Baker come up. This means she would have seen anbody coming down from higher up running down the stairs, which she didn't. Garner's testimony would have destroyed the WC theory, which is why Rankin buried the Stroud letter.
« Last Edit: January 23, 2022, 05:29:28 PM by Martin Weidmann »

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Re: Why classify information?
« Reply #66 on: January 22, 2022, 06:39:21 PM »


Offline Martin Weidmann

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Re: Why classify information?
« Reply #67 on: January 22, 2022, 06:58:53 PM »
No---He most definitely could see what he said he could see which he said he could see the back door.

Barnett also traversed the back of the building and looked south along the West side of the building.

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You can try to twist this thing as much as you like, but you will never get around the fact that Barnett said in his testimony that he didn't pay attention to the back door.

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No---12:36 is not 12:37

Still trying to use your own times in your own personalized timeline.

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I asked you where I said that 12:36 is 12:37? Why are you having so much difficulty answering even a simple question?

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No it does not matter. The amount of training required to pick up a piece of lead and hand it to an FBI Agent must be incredible. 

Remember this is 1963 not 2022. The science of criminology was rudimentary at best with blood tests, fingerprints, and ballistic matches. Once again watch the old cop shows if there is a question about how it all worked.

The old cop shows? Do you really believe that cop shows have anything in common with reality? You can't be serious...  :D

It's BS in any case because if criminology was rudimentary, why did you make such a big deal about ballistics earlier? And why did some DPD officers mark some pieces of evidence, if not to preserve the chain of custody? Were they just having a bit of fun scratching their initials on evidence? And why did the FBI check the rifle for fingerprints if they didn't have the ability to match them?

Do you ever think before you write?

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The crime scene was the blood and gore of JFK's wounds. The FBI also picked up lead fragments. They definitely were present in the car and also in his brain and also in the windshield. Were you maybe thinking the rest of the bullet fragments were vaporized by aliens? Are all things possible in conspiracy land?

The crime scene was the entire limo. The FBI only picked up three small fragments which they found under the jumpseat and which were no good for testing (CE 840).

https://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh17/html/WH_Vol17_0433b.htm

The two larger ones, which Frazier lined up in his mind, were allegedly taken from the car by the Secret Service, who had no business going through the car before a forensic investigation.

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The Chain of custody is intact. The bullet and fragments were matched to the rifle found on the 6th floor of the TSBD, to the exclusion of all other firearms. Howard Bennan saw the rifle being fired during the assassination.

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More BS.

The bullet and fragments were matched to the rifle found on the 6th floor of the TSBD, to the exclusion of all other firearms.

A meaningless comment unless you can prove when the rifle was fired. There is more evidence that the bullet now in evidence as CE399 is not the bullet that Tomlinson found at Parkland hospital than there is that it was!

Howard Bennan saw the rifle being fired during the assassination.


Don't those old cop shows learn you to choose your words more carefully? Brennan saw a rifle being fired. He never identified the MC that was found in the TSBD.

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All through his testimony. That is what Frazier means when he matches them. Are you still thinking JFK was killed earlier and the Dallas Motorcade was an elaborate ruse to hide that fact. A believer in the Zapruder Film was a fake?

What do you mean with "are you still thinking JFK was killed earlier..... ". I have never thought that. What I do think is that there is no conclusive evidence that he was killed with the MC rifle they found in the 6th floor.
« Last Edit: January 23, 2022, 09:40:43 PM by Martin Weidmann »

Offline Jack Nessan

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Re: Why classify information?
« Reply #68 on: January 23, 2022, 06:02:16 PM »
Mr. FRAZIER - Well, I will be frank with you, I didn't pay much attention to the package because like I say before and after he told me that it was curtain rods and I didn't pay any attention to it, and he never had lied to me before so I never did have any reason to doubt his word.

This would mean Buell Frazier, twice making an identical statement in his description of the bag carried by LHO into the TSBD, means it could easily have contained the rifle used to kill JFK.

Actually, this is incidental information. Based on the time stamps provided by Harkness and Sawyer, Adams and Styles in their statements already proved they never left the 4th floor before 12:35. The fact they weren't seen by Barnett exiting the rear of the TSBD in the three minutes he was in position there only serves to reinforce that fact.

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No difficulty at all, no need to make up your own timelines with your own times. "After 12:36" means anytime after 12:36:00. That is not the same as 12:37 Which is what Det. Sawyer stated.

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Putting their initials on the fragments would make their training way more difficult.

You still don't seem to understand matching the fragments to the rifle. It is only a suggestion to watch the old cop shows to help you understand what took place. Don't watch them if you don't want to.

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The trajectory Analysis lines up with the 6th floor as does the witnesses stating where the shots were fired from. Even Cyril Wecht agreed with that conclusion. With the existing evidence then you must believe a different shooter, also armed with a different carcano, assassinated JFK from the 6th floor of th TSBD. It is known he did not escape by way of the fire escape or down the stairs or the elevator. Nor was any unknown person seen in the TSBD before the assassination.

In this alternate assassination scenario, what happened to the assassin and where did he go? The shell casings discovered by the window were matched to the rifle to the exclusion of all others. The same as the bullet and fragments.



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Re: Why classify information?
« Reply #68 on: January 23, 2022, 06:02:16 PM »


Offline Martin Weidmann

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Re: Why classify information?
« Reply #69 on: January 23, 2022, 07:41:02 PM »

Mr. FRAZIER - Well, I will be frank with you, I didn't pay much attention to the package because like I say before and after he told me that it was curtain rods and I didn't pay any attention to it, and he never had lied to me before so I never did have any reason to doubt his word.

This would mean Buell Frazier, twice making an identical statement in his description of the bag carried by LHO into the TSBD, means it could easily have contained the rifle used to kill JFK.


Only in your imagination is this a rational comparison. You can speculate all you want, but Frazier ("it fitted between the cup of his hand and his armpit") and Randle ("he held the bag at the top and carried it next to his leg without it reaching the ground") gave multiple descriptions which indicate that the package couldn't have been long enough to conceal the 34" wooden stock of the rifle.

You're grasping at straws.

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Actually, this is incidental information. Based on the time stamps provided by Harkness and Sawyer, Adams and Styles in their statements already proved they never left the 4th floor before 12:35. The fact they weren't seen by Barnett exiting the rear of the TSBD in the three minutes he was in position there only serves to reinforce that fact.

As I said earlier, you can keep repeating the same old BS as much as you like, it doesn't become true or believable. Styles was photographed at the front of the TSBD and entered the building through the front entrance before it was sealed off. By your own account the front entrance was sealed off at 12:37, right? So, how do you figure both women managed to be at the front of the building at around 12:36 when they, as you foolishly claim, were still on the 4th floor at 12:35?

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No difficulty at all, no need to make up your own timelines with your own times. "After 12:36" means anytime after 12:36:00. That is not the same as 12:37 Which is what Det. Sawyer stated.

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Pathetic. "After 12:36" includes 12:37. Is this really the level at which you want to argue?

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Putting their initials on the fragments would make their training way more difficult.


Hilarious. Care to explain this beauty?

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You still don't seem to understand matching the fragments to the rifle. It is only a suggestion to watch the old cop shows to help you understand what took place. Don't watch them if you don't want to.

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Oh I perfectly understand matching the fragments to the rifle. In this case, this is what Frazier said about the fragments.

Mr. FRAZIER - The marks on the left are the same marks as those on the right. In the examination this is easily determined by rotating the two bullets. As you rotate them, you can see these characteristic patterns line up.
Then you will notice these do not line up. But as you rotate one bullet, you can follow the individual marks mentally and see that the same pattern is present and you can line them up in your mind, even though they are not actually physically lined up in the microscope.

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The trajectory Analysis lines up with the 6th floor as does the witnesses stating where the shots were fired from. Even Cyril Wecht agreed with that conclusion.

The trajectory Analysis lines up with the 6th floor

And where did you get this information? I've been to Dealey Plaza and if you look up from roughly the spot where the limo was towards the TSBD it becomes pretty obvious that the shots could just as easily have come from the Dal-Tex building.

The trajectory analysis pressumes a particular position of the limo and the President at the time the shots were fired. However, there is massive disagreement when the shots were fired exactly, which makes a credible analysis nearly impossible.

But as we are talking about trajectory analysis and you seem to love cop shows so much, have a look at these scenes from the movie "the International";



Who knows, you might even learn something.

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With the existing evidence then you must believe a different shooter, also armed with a different carcano, assassinated JFK from the 6th floor of th TSBD.

And why must I believe that? Strawman?

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It is known he did not escape by way of the fire escape or down the stairs or the elevator. Nor was any unknown person seen in the TSBD before the assassination.

In this alternate assassination scenario, what happened to the assassin and where did he go? The shell casings discovered by the window were matched to the rifle to the exclusion of all others. The same as the bullet and fragments.

Why are you asking me to speculate? One thing I'm pretty sure about by now is that nobody came down the stairs from the 6th floor within 90 seconds of the shots, because the women on the 4th floor, especially Dorothy Garner, would have seen him.

Even if the shell casings, the bullet and the fragments all matched the MC rifle found at the TSBD, it is meaningless when you can't show that particular rifle was fired that day or that Oswald fired it.
« Last Edit: January 23, 2022, 11:17:37 PM by Martin Weidmann »

Offline Jack Nessan

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Re: Why classify information?
« Reply #70 on: January 24, 2022, 04:31:49 PM »
That is what Barnett stated. He ran 20 feet past the back of the building and could see the back of the building. Definitely not what you are portraying. Adams and Styles or anyone else, never emerged from the back of the building in the three minutes Barnett was observing it, that is why he never noticed anything.

No--- Frazier stated he did not pay attention. This is incredibly hypocritical to provide your opinion as to the difference between Buel Frazier and Barnett.

Though you are exactly right about Linnie May Randel, she described a longer bag- -three feet long. The fingerprints discovered on the bag match her description of how the bag was being carrried. This is a good point about the difference between her description and Buell's.
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The HSCA and FBI Ballistic Experts all arrived at the same conclusion. Matched to the rifle.
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 Mr Canning,  Staff Engineer for the Space Projects Division of NASA Ames Research Center, explained trajectory analysis durring the HSCA Investigation. Feel free to dissect his testimony and point out its flaws. Make sure you don't use facts and not your own opinion or speculation.

Basically a 5 to 13 foot radius centering on the 6th floor window.
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What weapon shot JFK if not a carcano and how did he escape? Or is this the reason for the Dal Tex story. I was unaware anybody even believed that anymore. Where from the Dal Tex could a shot have been fired? Are you the architect of theory about a shot that went through the open windows of the 6th floor of the TSBD?

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I did learn something. You have zero understanding of ballistic or trajectory analysis. The Columbo wannabe detective easily determined there was two shooters. Trajectory analysis would have determined the guy killed in the room was not the guy who shot him. Which is what the detective immediately figured out. The bullet that killed the man would not have been matched to the rifle in the dead guys room. The shells would not have been matched to the rifle of the dead shooter. They forgot to account for the shell in the chamber and planted the extra shells in the middle of the room instead of by the window

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You speculate and offer your opinion constantly with either tortured or invented information as the basis.  Don't be shy now. Garner is proof a memory recorded 6 months after the fact is suspect at best. Her statement is in direct conflict with the the statements of Adams and Styles. That is why the WC basically ignored it. To their credit they recorded it anyway despite the fact it is so easily proven to be false.




Offline Martin Weidmann

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Re: Why classify information?
« Reply #71 on: January 24, 2022, 06:13:14 PM »
That is what Barnett stated. He ran 20 feet past the back of the building and could see the back of the building. Definitely not what you are portraying. Adams and Styles or anyone else, never emerged from the back of the building in the three minutes Barnett was observing it, that is why he never noticed anything.

Thank you for sharing your flawed opinion. I am not going to argue this point anymore. It's like talking to a machine.

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No--- Frazier stated he did not pay attention. This is incredibly hypocritical to provide your opinion as to the difference between Buel Frazier and Barnett.

Though you are exactly right about Linnie May Randel, she described a longer bag- -three feet long. The fingerprints discovered on the bag match her description of how the bag was being carrried. This is a good point about the difference between her description and Buell's.
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Where did Randle describe a longer bag? You are making up stories to fit the narrative you like.

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The HSCA and FBI Ballistic Experts all arrived at the same conclusion. Matched to the rifle.
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Sure, they did. And where did they say when the rifle was fired? That's the question you keep on evading.

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Mr Canning,  Staff Engineer for the Space Projects Division of NASA Ames Research Center, explained trajectory analysis durring the HSCA Investigation. Feel free to dissect his testimony and point out its flaws. Make sure you don't use facts and not your own opinion or speculation.

Basically a 5 to 13 foot radius centering on the 6th floor window.
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Mr. GOLDSMITH. And what basic information is necessary to determine a trajectory?
Mr. CANNING. We must first identify where the two points are in space so that we can then construct that line.

Mr. GOLDSMITH. What specific information, in addition to this map, did you need to determine the trajectory of these bullets?
Mr. CANNING. We needed first and foremost an accurate identification of the inshoot and outshoot wounds and their exact locations.
Mr. GOLDSMITH. Did you need any information about the location of the limousine?
Mr. CANNING. We needed to know the location of the limousine, and we needed to know the location of the people in the limousine, and, in two cases we needed to know the actual angular orientation of the people in the limousine.

Which means the entire analysis was based on guesses. Unless of course you can show me conclusive evidence about the exact location of the car, the people in it and their angular orientation.

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What weapon shot JFK if not a carcano and how did he escape? Or is this the reason for the Dal Tex story. I was unaware anybody even believed that anymore. Where from the Dal Tex could a shot have been fired? Are you the architect of theory about a shot that went through the open windows of the 6th floor of the TSBD?

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I do not know if the Carcano was used to kill JFK and neither do you. All you can do is assume it was.

I haven't heard the theory about a shot that went through the open windows of the 6th floor of the TSBD. Who came up with such an absurd notion?

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I did learn something. You have zero understanding of ballistic or trajectory analysis. The Columbo wannabe detective easily determined there was two shooters. Trajectory analysis would have determined the guy killed in the room was not the guy who shot him. Which is what the detective immediately figured out. The bullet that killed the man would not have been matched to the rifle in the dead guys room. The shells would not have been matched to the rifle of the dead shooter. They forgot to account for the shell in the chamber and planted the extra shells in the middle of the room instead of by the window

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Well, apparently you did not learn the right thing, because in the movie the shots went through a pilar providing a perfect trajectory to see where the shots came from. The lesson you failed to learn is that in the JFK case there is no such fixed point from where to start an analysis from. All Canning could do was guess.

The bullet that killed the man would not have been matched to the rifle in the dead guys room. The shells would not have been matched to the rifle of the dead shooter. They forgot to account for the shell in the chamber and planted the extra shells in the middle of the room instead of by the window

Oh boy. It was a movie, fool. All it did was show you how something like that could work. Not only did you miss that point completely, but instead you start arguing about the details in the movie..... Really?  :D

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You speculate and offer your opinion constantly with either tortured or invented information as the basis.  Don't be shy now. Garner is proof a memory recorded 6 months after the fact is suspect at best. Her statement is in direct conflict with the the statements of Adams and Styles. That is why the WC basically ignored it. To their credit they recorded it anyway despite the fact it is so easily proven to be false.

Sorry but I can't deal with so much stupidity. Garner said exactly the same thing as Adams. She confirmed to Martha Stroud that Adams and Styles left the 4th floor before Truly and Baker came up, but I get it; you desperately need the "Oswald on the stairs" to stay alive so you accuse a simple office worker, like Garner, of lying to the Office of a United States Attorney.

And, irony oh irony, you accuse me of speculation and offering my opinion with invented information as basis. You really are some piece of work and most certainly no longer interesting enough for me to waste anymore time on.
« Last Edit: January 24, 2022, 06:21:02 PM by Martin Weidmann »

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Re: Why classify information?
« Reply #71 on: January 24, 2022, 06:13:14 PM »