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Author Topic: Physical evidence of the first shot (miss)  (Read 12384 times)

Online Charles Collins

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Re: Physical evidence of the first shot (miss)
« Reply #16 on: February 03, 2022, 04:22:25 PM »
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Charles,
I hadn’t noticed that street mark before,  good eye!  I have seen some others when I was arguing with another person on another forum that there probably was no formal street inspection up by the depository building for a bullet strike (at least I saw no record or photos of it happening). A bullet mark in the pavement up the street on Elm would probably not have really stood out as much as people think, and it is quite possible there could have been a bullet mark on the street up there that went unnoticed because the Plaza roads were not all that pristine and additionally no one suspected a missed shot that early, so that scenario was never investigated

For this discussion the pictures I was referencing are dropped in a summary here labeled Inspections for evidence of the first shot strike location. This will include the oak tree, traffic mast, and street. My favorite picture is of the Warren Commission members walking over “bullet strike like” divots in that area of the street.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1hEtXLIwjVIU9plOW2X7E5cWuHVm-vb5w/view?usp=sharing

Thanks Brian! Yes, traffic from the remainder of the motorcade and the subsequent normal traffic flow which was allowed immediately after the shooting would most likely have made any bullet strike marks less obvious. And like you said, the investigation that followed didn’t really focus on this area because they thought the shots occurred later.

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Re: Physical evidence of the first shot (miss)
« Reply #16 on: February 03, 2022, 04:22:25 PM »


Online Charles Collins

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Re: Physical evidence of the first shot (miss)
« Reply #17 on: February 04, 2022, 01:28:26 AM »
This is one of the illustration figures from the article on Max Holland"s efforts (linked earlier in this thread):





I believe that the view in the above image is from the sniper's nest window. What struck me as significant about this image is that it appears that the mark in the white line on the pavement (visible in the Allen photo of the three tramps and pointed out with the red arrow, see photo posted below) would appear to be located in a position that is obscured from view from the sniper's nest window by the infamous oak tree. What this suggests is that it is possible that a first shot bullet could have first hit a tree limb, and then started tumbling before it hit the pavement. Therefore this could further complicate any ricochet studies of a Carcano bullet hitting pavement.



Offline Brian Roselle

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Re: Physical evidence of the first shot (miss)
« Reply #18 on: February 07, 2022, 12:36:07 AM »
I had a couple of thoughts after looking at the MythBusters video and the DeRonja-Holland report posted earlier.

Myth Busters ricochet video. Regarding the pavement strikes.

In the Myth Busters testing (as well as the Haag tests), in real time the pavement strike’s flying debris can visually be seen but then dissipates very fast. It looks to be visually dissipated in a fraction of a second.  For example, in the Myth Busters 32deg angle test at time 2:20, if I look right at the impact spot, I can see it happen, but it’s just a very brief explosion with a small puff of smoke off the pavement.
Perhaps this might help explain why only a few people reported seeing a pavement strike in Dealey Plaza. You can easily hear the shot, but if you were not looking close to where it struck, you might miss seeing it entirely. For example, if you were looking at JFK and it hit near your line of sight to JFK you might see it (this might explain the Faye Chism dynamic). If you were focused on Jackie or somewhere else, it might be much harder to see the pavement strike in the periphery of your field of vision.
Just one other observation is that the copper jacketed bullets were only at about Mach 1, but in this test they still fragmented and deformed, independent of the tested shooting angles of incidence and rebound.

DeRonja-Holland report.

If indeed their final hypothesis is accurately depicted in their photograph Figure 20 in that study, then I wanted to comment on why so many I’ve heard saying the missed shot happened because of a mast deflection, may be wrong.
This may have been discussed before, but I thought it was worth noting that their proposed bullet trajectory could just be called a trajectory that would minimally miss the limo if the mast didn't get in the way (but it's not the smallest miss). On the cropped version here there is a magenta colored line from their mast strike point (a white dot) to a circle representing the President’s head as the target. That line length represents an associated aim angle of missing the target. The other line to the lower right at about 4 o’clock is a different angle of limo miss that is a smaller angle of miss depicted by its smaller line length (as measured in pixels) on the photo.

In their final scenario, it appears the real reason for the Presidential and limo miss is simply an error in aiming, not a mast deflection. In their hypothesis the mast just happened to get in the way of the bullet path for that scenario. If the mast was not even there, this shot would still miss the President and the limo by overshooting the limo, and it would miss by a larger margin than a minimum limo miss to the lower right. The mast now becomes their mechanism for disappearance of the bullet. The other smaller limo minimum miss to the lower right would have the bullet striking the pavement with disintegration or possibly some fragment ricochet as the mechanism for the bullet disappearance.

Net, an early missed shot would not need to be predicated on the mast. It could have been as simple as just poor target tracking with associated aim error and could occur at any time around there. Only 15-20 ft further down the road would have had the limo and the President totally in the clear, past the mast and before the tree branches. 



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Re: Physical evidence of the first shot (miss)
« Reply #18 on: February 07, 2022, 12:36:07 AM »


Online Charles Collins

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Re: Physical evidence of the first shot (miss)
« Reply #19 on: February 07, 2022, 04:32:05 PM »
I had a couple of thoughts after looking at the MythBusters video and the DeRonja-Holland report posted earlier.

Myth Busters ricochet video. Regarding the pavement strikes.

In the Myth Busters testing (as well as the Haag tests), in real time the pavement strike’s flying debris can visually be seen but then dissipates very fast. It looks to be visually dissipated in a fraction of a second.  For example, in the Myth Busters 32deg angle test at time 2:20, if I look right at the impact spot, I can see it happen, but it’s just a very brief explosion with a small puff of smoke off the pavement.
Perhaps this might help explain why only a few people reported seeing a pavement strike in Dealey Plaza. You can easily hear the shot, but if you were not looking close to where it struck, you might miss seeing it entirely. For example, if you were looking at JFK and it hit near your line of sight to JFK you might see it (this might explain the Faye Chism dynamic). If you were focused on Jackie or somewhere else, it might be much harder to see the pavement strike in the periphery of your field of vision.
Just one other observation is that the copper jacketed bullets were only at about Mach 1, but in this test they still fragmented and deformed, independent of the tested shooting angles of incidence and rebound.

DeRonja-Holland report.

If indeed their final hypothesis is accurately depicted in their photograph Figure 20 in that study, then I wanted to comment on why so many I’ve heard saying the missed shot happened because of a mast deflection, may be wrong.
This may have been discussed before, but I thought it was worth noting that their proposed bullet trajectory could just be called a trajectory that would minimally miss the limo if the mast didn't get in the way (but it's not the smallest miss). On the cropped version here there is a magenta colored line from their mast strike point (a white dot) to a circle representing the President’s head as the target. That line length represents an associated aim angle of missing the target. The other line to the lower right at about 4 o’clock is a different angle of limo miss that is a smaller angle of miss depicted by its smaller line length (as measured in pixels) on the photo.

In their final scenario, it appears the real reason for the Presidential and limo miss is simply an error in aiming, not a mast deflection. In their hypothesis the mast just happened to get in the way of the bullet path for that scenario. If the mast was not even there, this shot would still miss the President and the limo by overshooting the limo, and it would miss by a larger margin than a minimum limo miss to the lower right. The mast now becomes their mechanism for disappearance of the bullet. The other smaller limo minimum miss to the lower right would have the bullet striking the pavement with disintegration or possibly some fragment ricochet as the mechanism for the bullet disappearance.

Net, an early missed shot would not need to be predicated on the mast. It could have been as simple as just poor target tracking with associated aim error and could occur at any time around there. Only 15-20 ft further down the road would have had the limo and the President totally in the clear, past the mast and before the tree branches. 




Good points, Brian. My further thoughts include: The viewpoints of the Chisms elevation-wise was such that the street level at around the z133 area was about the same as their eye-levels. In other words, due to the slope of the hill, they were standing about 5 feet or so below the street level in the z133 area. Therefore they would be able to see the full height of the plume of asphalt against a potentially lighter background. And that would make it more visible than it might be for someone looking at a downward angle with more asphalt as the background. Also, Royce Skelton would be at a similar elevation, but slightly above the Chisms, so that he could see over their heads to the street area at the z133 area. And he should have been able to also see the height of the plume with a potentially lighter background behind it.

Offline Brian Roselle

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Re: Physical evidence of the first shot (miss)
« Reply #20 on: February 08, 2022, 01:04:40 AM »
Charles, I like your idea that the view angle based on position and elevation relative to the limo may have played a factor in how easily a pavement strike was able to be viewed. Like you said, having a lighter background as viewed would likely help to see any small dark debris and pulverized pavement “smoke” that popped up.  Also, if a shot did hit fairly close to the limo, the limo dark/deep blue color as a background probably wouldn't help visibility matters any.

Separately, if the Holland picture I attached in my last post does not show or if it goes away, it is probably due to me trying to attach it from Google drive or Google photo. I’m not sure how reliable that method will be.

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Re: Physical evidence of the first shot (miss)
« Reply #20 on: February 08, 2022, 01:04:40 AM »


Online Charles Collins

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Re: Physical evidence of the first shot (miss)
« Reply #21 on: February 08, 2022, 02:40:08 AM »
Charles, I like your idea that the view angle based on position and elevation relative to the limo may have played a factor in how easily a pavement strike was able to be viewed. Like you said, having a lighter background as viewed would likely help to see any small dark debris and pulverized pavement “smoke” that popped up.  Also, if a shot did hit fairly close to the limo, the limo dark/deep blue color as a background probably wouldn't help visibility matters any.

Separately, if the Holland picture I attached in my last post does not show or if it goes away, it is probably due to me trying to attach it from Google drive or Google photo. I’m not sure how reliable that method will be.

Yes, the myth busters demonstration is a good visual confirmation of the light background and low angle making a big difference. The side views are much easier to see than the ones with the asphalt for the background.

I haven’t seen the Holland image show up in your earlier post. I think that I have a good idea of the concept you described. But an image almost always helps.

Offline Brian Roselle

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Re: Physical evidence of the first shot (miss)
« Reply #22 on: February 08, 2022, 04:14:31 AM »
Thanks for letting me know the picture didn't display. Sorry about the inconvenience.

I was hoping to use my Google Drive as the source. I'll try one more time and if that doesn't work I will look at another place to store pictures to share.



I tried to insert the picture just above this sentence.

If it doesn't show, this following link is to the picture.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/10_51YR3g6ujVBNBJiXF42s9rvCVO31Y-/view?usp=sharing



Online Charles Collins

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Re: Physical evidence of the first shot (miss)
« Reply #23 on: February 08, 2022, 12:36:06 PM »
Thanks for letting me know the picture didn't display. Sorry about the inconvenience.

I was hoping to use my Google Drive as the source. I'll try one more time and if that doesn't work I will look at another place to store pictures to share.



I tried to insert the picture just above this sentence.

If it doesn't show, this following link is to the picture.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/10_51YR3g6ujVBNBJiXF42s9rvCVO31Y-/view?usp=sharing

It works, thanks! Yes that is what I had pictured in my mind based on your description alone.

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Re: Physical evidence of the first shot (miss)
« Reply #23 on: February 08, 2022, 12:36:06 PM »