Physical evidence of the first shot (miss)

[Andrew Mason]

Another stunning example of "witnesses are only right when they support what I already believe happened, and unreliable when they don't".

I agree.  Tague was not inconsistent in his evidence.  He recalled 3 distinct shots and he recalled that he felt something strike his face on one of the shots.  He was able to accurately determine which shot struck him. He never changed his evidence on that.   When first asked the question as to which of the three shots struck him, he said he did not know.  However, when questioned further he was able to provide a clear answer:  he knew he heard a shot before he felt something and he knew he heard a shot after he was hit.  So while he did not consciously relate the feeling of being hit to the second shot at the time, his memory of when he was not struck left him with an unambiguous conclusion that he was struck on the second shot.

Anyone who speculates that the bleeding face cut was pre-existing, that the mark on the curb (described by all who saw it as being fresh) was pre-existing and that there were probably a whole lot of other similar marks on curbs in Dallas, is basing conclusions on speculation, not the evidence. 

[Charles Collins]

I agree.  Tague was not inconsistent in his evidence.  He recalled 3 distinct shots and he recalled that he felt something strike his face on one of the shots.  He was able to accurately determine which shot struck him. He never changed his evidence on that.   When first asked the question as to which of the three shots struck him, he said he did not know.  However, when questioned further he was able to provide a clear answer:  he knew he heard a shot before he felt something and he knew he heard a shot after he was hit.  So while he did not consciously relate the feeling of being hit to the second shot at the time, his memory of when he was not struck left him with an unambiguous conclusion that he was struck on the second shot.

Anyone who speculates that the bleeding face cut was pre-existing, that the mark on the curb (described by all who saw it as being fresh) was pre-existing and that there were probably a whole lot of other similar marks on curbs in Dallas, is basing conclusions on speculation, not the evidence.

he knew he heard a shot before he felt something and he knew he heard a shot after he was hit.

You are flat out wrong. In his testimony he was never asked if he heard a shot before he felt something. And he never said that he knew anything about which shot hit him. He did say that he couldn't tell him definitely. And he said that he would guess it was either the second or third shot. When he finally says he believes he heard shots after he was hit, it is not the same as saying he knew this.  So, your claim that Tague knew those things is not supported by what he actually said.  Here is a pertinent part of his Warren Commission testimony:


Now you yourself, as I understand it, did not see the President hit?
Mr. TAGUE I did not ; no.
Mr. LIEBELEB. How long after did you feel yourself get hit by anything?
Mr. TAGUE. I felt it at the time, but I didn’t associate, didn’t make any connnection, and ignored it. And after this happened, or maybe the second or third
shot, I couldn’t tell you definitely-I made no connection. I looked around
wondering what was going on, and I recall this. We got to talking, and I recall
that something had stinged me, and then the deputy sheriff looked up and said,
“You have blood there on your cheek.” That is when we walked back down
there.
Mr. LIEBELER Do you have any idea which bullet might have made that mark?
Mr. TAGUE. I would guess it was either the second or third. I wouldn’t say
definitely on which one.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you hear any more shots after you felt yourself get hit in
the face?
Mr. TAGUE. I believe I did.
Mr. LIEBELER. You think you did?
Mr. TAGUE. I believe I did.
Mr. LIEBELER. How many?
Mr. TAGUE. I believe that it was the second shot, so I heard the third shot
afterwards.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you hear three shots?
Mr. TAGUE. I heard three shots; yes sir. And I did notice the time on the
Hertz clock. It was 12 29.
Mr. LIEBELER. That was about the time that you felt yourself struck?
Mr. TAGUE. I just glanced. I mean I just stopped, got out of my car, and here
came the motorcade. I just happened upon the scene.


There is absolutely nothing definite about which shot hit him included in that testimony. Therefore, one cannot definitely rule out the possibility that it was the first shot.

Edit: Also, I believe that he changed his mind later on and said he believed it to be the third shot. I think that is his story that he used in his book. But I would have to look for that to verify. However, I am sure that he has said at one time or another that he believed it was the third shot. THATS being inconsistent.

[Andrew Mason]

The witness testified under oath that he didn’t know which shot to associate with his getting stung.



And here you imply that he actually knows that it wasn’t the first shot:

If Tague actually said that, it is at odds with his sworn testimony. You can believe whatever you wish. I really couldn’t care less.

Tague initially volunteered that it was either the second or third shot, he didn't know which.  But when questioned further he did recall that there was a shot after he was hit, so he concluded that he was hit on the second shot.  It is difficult to interpret that other than a statement that he was not hit on the first shot.

[Charles Collins]

Tague initially volunteered that it was either the second or third shot, he didn't know which.  But when questioned further he did recall that there was a shot after he was hit, so he concluded that he was hit on the second shot.  It is difficult to interpret that other than a statement that he was not hit on the first shot.

Tague initially volunteered that it was either the second or third shot, he didn’t know which.

Correction, he volunteered a guess, just a guess. He had had months to consider what he had witnessed before he testified to the Warren Commission. Do you really believe that he hadn’t been asked which shot hit him before that point in time? Do you really believe that was the first time he thought whether or not he heard any shots after he was stung? Do you really believe that it all suddenly came back to him after Liebeler asked that question? Hell no, that makes no sense whatsoever. The first thing Tague said when this line of questioning began was he couldn’t say definitely because he made no connection. This wasn’t like they were asking shortly after it happened. He had had time to consider everything and to anticipate this question. His answer was most definitely that he didn’t know. How the hell do you think someone can make no connection but somehow, some mysterious way rule out the first shot? Please explain how that could possibly work!!!


Edit: Also, he testified to the Warren Commission that he believed he heard shot(s) after he was hit. Years later, in his book he writes “I can now safely say and with confidence that it was the third shot that missed.” So, I have to ask you Mr. Andrew Mason, how you can honestly say that: “he knew he heard a shot before he felt something and he knew he heard a shot after he was hit.”???

Tague himself only appears to offer that, from his position, the sound of the first shot sounded like a firecracker and the other two shots had the crack of a rifle shot. So it appears to me that his reason for discounting the possibility for a first shot hitting the curb near him is that he didn’t think it was a rifle shot. I have seen no other explanation from Tague to explain why he believes it wasn’t the first shot. He obviously doesn’t know which shot hit him. But some how, some mysterious way, he knows it wasn’t the first shot??? As Mr Spock used to say, that isn’t logical.

[Richard Smith]

I agree.  Tague was not inconsistent in his evidence.  He recalled 3 distinct shots and he recalled that he felt something strike his face on one of the shots.  He was able to accurately determine which shot struck him. He never changed his evidence on that.   When first asked the question as to which of the three shots struck him, he said he did not know.  However, when questioned further he was able to provide a clear answer:  he knew he heard a shot before he felt something and he knew he heard a shot after he was hit.  So while he did not consciously relate the feeling of being hit to the second shot at the time, his memory of when he was not struck left him with an unambiguous conclusion that he was struck on the second shot.

Anyone who speculates that the bleeding face cut was pre-existing, that the mark on the curb (described by all who saw it as being fresh) was pre-existing and that there were probably a whole lot of other similar marks on curbs in Dallas, is basing conclusions on speculation, not the evidence.

The facts are that Tague had a preexisting cut to his face.  Many authors have mistakenly suggested this was the wound he received during the assassination.  Photos were taken of the preexisting cut.  He ducked behind an overpass during the shooting.  He only discovered the bleeding on his cheek afterward.  It doesn't take much "speculation" to suggest that most city street curbs have marks or chips.  You can simply walk down almost any city block in America and confirm in five seconds.  Tague's "evidence" is that he heard some shots, ducked behind the overpass, and a few minutes later discovered his cheek was bleeding.  He attributes the wound to the shooting.  He looks around and sees a mark on the curb and speculates that might be where a bullet struck.  Because he had a preexisting facial injury he may have just reopened the wound when he ducked behind the overpass or the injury occurred by scratching his face on the overpass pillar.  I'm not saying that he wasn't struck as a result of the shooting.  It is entirely possible, but I'm amazed that this is accepted as a fact without any question.

[Andrew Mason]

Tague initially volunteered that it was either the second or third shot, he didn’t know which.

Correction, he volunteered a guess, just a guess. He had had months to consider what he had witnessed before he testified to the Warren Commission. Do you really believe that he hadn’t been asked which shot hit him before that point in time? Do you really believe that was the first time he thought whether or not he heard any shots after he was stung? Do you really believe that it all suddenly came back to him after Liebeler asked that question? Hell no, that makes no sense whatsoever. The first thing Tague said when this line of questioning began was he couldn’t say definitely because he made no connection. This wasn’t like they were asking shortly after it happened. He had had time to consider everything and to anticipate this question. His answer was most definitely that he didn’t know. How the hell do you think someone can make no connection but somehow, some mysterious way rule out the first shot? Please explain how that could possibly work!!!


Edit: Also, he testified to the Warren Commission that he believed he heard shot(s) after he was hit. Years later, in his book he writes “I can now safely say and with confidence that it was the third shot that missed.” So, I have to ask you Mr. Andrew Mason, how you can honestly say that: “he knew he heard a shot before he felt something and he knew he heard a shot after he was hit.”???

Tague himself only appears to offer that, from his position, the sound of the first shot sounded like a firecracker and the other two shots had the crack of a rifle shot. So it appears to me that his reason for discounting the possibility for a first shot hitting the curb near him is that he didn’t think it was a rifle shot. I have seen no other explanation from Tague to explain why he believes it wasn’t the first shot. He obviously doesn’t know which shot hit him. But some how, some mysterious way, he knows it wasn’t the first shot??? As Mr Spock used to say, that isn’t logical.

Now you are saying something different. You are questioning the reliability of what he said rather than what he said.

I agree that one witness can be wrong.  So you look for corroboration. 

Obviously, the shot on which a fragment struck him was not the shot that fired CE399.  So the first question is: which of the shots was CE399?  It must have been the shot that struck JFK in the neck because it certainly wasn't the head shot bullet.  There were over 20 witnesses who said it was the first shot - that JFK reacted immediately by moving left, grabbing his chest, ducking - etc. Definitely not by smiling and waving. No one said that.    Also, the shot pattern observed by the vast majority of witnesses who recalled the pattern with the last two closer together and in rapid succession (plus possibly dozens of others who were not asked but described the first shot and then two more without commenting on the spacing) leaves only one possibility: that the first shot did not miss (ie. that the witnesses who saw JFK react to the first shot were correct).  So if CE399 was the first shot, that leaves the second or third shot as the only possibilities.

Greer also provides evidence that is consistent with the second shot fragmenting.  Greer recalled sensing a "concussion" effect from the second shot.  I don't think that means he felt a head injury.  So he heard or felt an impact somehow.  That was the only shot on which he noted that kind of event.  Keep in mind that his right ear was about 12 inches from the damage to the top windshield frame, so it would be surprising if he had not heard that impact.  That fits with another fragment going a bit higher over the windshield and eventually striking the curb near Tague.

And Tague's recollection fits with the physical evidence of multiple fragments traveling high on the windshield and Greer's evidence that he felt a concussion on the second shot.

[Charles Collins]

Now you are saying something different. You are questioning the reliability of what he said rather than what he said.

I agree that one witness can be wrong.  So you look for corroboration. 

Obviously, the shot on which a fragment struck him was not the shot that fired CE399.  So the first question is: which of the shots was CE399?  It must have been the shot that struck JFK in the neck because it certainly wasn't the head shot bullet.  There were over 20 witnesses who said it was the first shot - that JFK reacted immediately by moving left, grabbing his chest, ducking - etc. Definitely not by smiling and waving. No one said that.    Also, the shot pattern observed by the vast majority of witnesses who recalled the pattern with the last two closer together and in rapid succession (plus possibly dozens of others who were not asked but described the first shot and then two more without commenting on the spacing) leaves only one possibility: that the first shot did not miss (ie. that the witnesses who saw JFK react to the first shot were correct).  So if CE399 was the first shot, that leaves the second or third shot as the only possibilities.

Greer also provides evidence that is consistent with the second shot fragmenting.  Greer recalled sensing a "concussion" effect from the second shot.  I don't think that means he felt a head injury.  So he heard or felt an impact somehow.  That was the only shot on which he noted that kind of event.  Keep in mind that his right ear was about 12 inches from the damage to the top windshield frame, so it would be surprising if he had not heard that impact.  That fits with another fragment going a bit higher over the windshield and eventually striking the curb near Tague.

And Tague's recollection fits with the physical evidence of multiple fragments traveling high on the windshield and Greer's evidence that he felt a concussion on the second shot.

Okay, you’ve had your chance to explain why Tague’s wishy washy fickle statements should be a legitimate reason to completely rule out the first shot was responsible for his injury. And you’ve failed miserably because he obviously doesn’t know which shot hit him. Thank you.

[Jack Nessan]

Okay, you’ve had your chance to explain why Tague’s wishy washy fickle statements should be a legitimate reason to completely rule out the first shot was responsible for his injury. And you’ve failed miserably because he obviously doesn’t know which shot hit him. Thank you.

If you have ever seen the cement bridge abutment pillars that make up the underpass, it provides an alternative as to how he really supposedly scrapped his cheek. They are a extremely rough pebbly cement and he was pressed up against the pillar, seeking cover, while the cars left for the hospital. All he eversaw was the tail end of the Secret Service car disappearing under the overpass.

Mr. Tague.
Well, I was standing there watching, and really I was watching to try to distinguish the President and his car. About this time I heard what sounded like a firecracker. Well, a very loud firecracker. It certainly didn't sound like a rifleshot. It was more of a loud cannon-type sound. I looked around to see who was throwing firecrackers or what was going on and I turned my head away from the motorcade and, of course, two more shots.
And I ducked behind the post when I realized somebody was shooting after the third shot. After the third shot, I ducked behind the bridge abutment and was there for a second, and I glanced out and Just as I looked out, the car following the President's car, the one with the Secret Service men, was just flying past at that time.

The only person who ever stated there was blood on Tague's cheek was Tague.

Mr. Walthers.
That's right--in this lane here and his car was just partially sticking out parked there and he came up to me and asked me, he said, "Are you looking to see where some bullets may have struck?" And I said, "Yes." He says, "I was standing over by the bank here, right there where my car is parked when those shots happened," and he said, "I don't know where they came from, or if they were shots, but something struck me on the face," and he said, "It didn't make any scratch or cut and it just was a sting," and so I had him show me right where he was standing and I started to search in that immediate area and found a place on the curb there in the Main Street lane there close to the underpass where a projectile had struck that curb.