Are these two photos legit?

[Charles Collins]

Day's isn't a first-hand witness account. He"believes" Sims advised him but "could be wrong about that".
Sims is one of Fritz's main men and is covering for him. What Fritz has done is an unbelievably flagrant abuse of evidence, something beyond incompetence.
What reason do Alyea and, in particular, Mooney have to lie about this?
Why would you not believe their accounts?

Mr. Mooney - …So, at that time, I didn't lay my hands on anything, because I wanted to save every evidence we could for fingerprints. So I leaned out the window, the same window from which the shots were fired, looked down, and I saw Sheriff Bill Decker and Captain Will Fritz standing right on the ground.
Well, so I hollered, or signaled I hollered, I more or less hollered. I whistled a time or two before I got anybody to see me. And yet they was all looking that way, too except the sheriff, they wasn't looking up.

And I told him to get the crime lab officers en route, that I had the location spotted.
So I stood guard to see that no one disturbed anything until Captain Will Fritz approached with his group of officers, city officers. At that time, of course, when I hollered, of course Officers Vickery and Webster, they came across and later on several other deputies--I believe Officers McCurley, A. D. McCurley, I believe he came over. Where he came from--they was all en route up there, I assume.


Again, exactly when was Fritz supposed to have done this? The above testimony (by your man Mooney), indicates that Fritz was outside the building on the ground when he hollered out that the shells had been found. Therefore, it appears unlikely to me that Fritz could have made it all the way up to the sixth floor and done this before Sims was able to get there from one only floor above. So it seems to me that if Fritz did this, Sims and the other officers who went to the area would have seen it. Have Vickery, Webster, McCurley, or anyone else besides Alyea said anything about Fritz doing that?
Without any actual film that would show what Alyea said that he filmed, it is easy to discount his story. And I find it easy to discount Mooney’s story without any of his fellow officers (who were there) backing it up.

[John Mytton]

How can you account for these two, independently corroborating, first-hand eye-witness accounts that Fritz was the first officer to pick up the shell casings?

How can you account for the two independently corroborating, first-hand eye-witness accounts that say the shells were photographed before anyone moved them.

Since you aren't providing any images of this close-up film that Alyea supposedly made, I assume that no one has ever seen it.

Sims testified that he heard the shouting when the shells were first found. Sims also testified that he was on the seventh floor when he heard the shouts and went immediately to the sniper's nest on the sixth floor. So, exactly when is Fritz supposed to have done this? I believe that Day testified that he had just finished dusting the shells for fingerprints and put them in an envelope and turned them over to another detective when the rifle was first found. And I find it very difficult to believe that someone with Fritz's experience would do something like that.

Since you aren't providing any images of this close-up film that Alyea supposedly made, I assume that no one has ever seen it.

Hi Charles, @2:59 in the following YT video which was broadcast later that day and for some reason is "age restricted"? we see footage that Alyea filmed on the 6th floor and even though half of the footage is barely watchable, WFAATV obviously being desperate to broadcast whatever they could showed Alyea's film to what appears through to it's very end and I see Oswald's murder weapon, people standing around, a stairway direction sign, a detective holding a bottle but I don't see any close-ups of Fritz holding shells?

EDIT I was thinking back to footage of Day removing the rifle from the floor and it's not in the footage above. So after a quick search, on DVP's YT video site I found some additional Alyea footage but still no close up of Carcano hulls. It's interesting that WFAATV didn't initially show the more news worthy footage of the rifle being recovered and instead gave us a stack of flickering images?

JohnM

[John Mytton]

I’m sure this has been discussed before...
If these two photos are legit, how are the different “sniper nest" box setups explained?

AND if the president is going by, why would anyone take a picture of these two guys on the fifth floor?
Who took both photos?

JohnM

[Dan O'meara]

Mr. Mooney - …So, at that time, I didn't lay my hands on anything, because I wanted to save every evidence we could for fingerprints. So I leaned out the window, the same window from which the shots were fired, looked down, and I saw Sheriff Bill Decker and Captain Will Fritz standing right on the ground.
Well, so I hollered, or signaled I hollered, I more or less hollered. I whistled a time or two before I got anybody to see me. And yet they was all looking that way, too except the sheriff, they wasn't looking up.

And I told him to get the crime lab officers en route, that I had the location spotted.
So I stood guard to see that no one disturbed anything until Captain Will Fritz approached with his group of officers, city officers. At that time, of course, when I hollered, of course Officers Vickery and Webster, they came across and later on several other deputies--I believe Officers McCurley, A. D. McCurley, I believe he came over. Where he came from--they was all en route up there, I assume.


Again, exactly when was Fritz supposed to have done this? The above testimony (by your man Mooney), indicates that Fritz was outside the building on the ground when he hollered out that the shells had been found. Therefore, it appears unlikely to me that Fritz could have made it all the way up to the sixth floor and done this before Sims was able to get there from one only floor above. So it seems to me that if Fritz did this, Sims and the other officers who went to the area would have seen it. Have Vickery, Webster, McCurley, or anyone else besides Alyea said anything about Fritz doing that?
Without any actual film that would show what Alyea said that he filmed, it is easy to discount his story. And I find it easy to discount Mooney’s story without any of his fellow officers (who were there) backing it up.

Of course you think Alyea and Mooney are lying, even though both men give specific, detailed first-hand accounts of Fritz picking up the shells.
You're an LNer, so why wouldn't you!
But why do you accept the staggering incompetence of the investigation when it comes to no photographic evidence of the original Sniper's Perch, no photographic evidence of the original position of the "Rifle Bag" and no photographic evidence of the original position of Bonnie Ray Williams' lunch remains?

You don't accept Fritz picked up the shell casings because you "find it very difficult to believe that someone with Fritz's experience would do something like that".
Yet you have no problem that Fritz does exactly the same thing with the live round. He ejects it from the rifle and pockets it without initialing it, thus destroying the chain of evidence. Does that sound like the actions of a veteran homicide detective?

We have seen photographic evidence that these bungling buffoons tried to re-stage the Sniper's Perch but you don't believe they would re-stage the position of the shells?

Of course you think Alyea, a news reporter, and Mooney, a Deputy Sheriff, are liars.
Yet you can offer absolutely no explanation why these two, completely unconnected men would offer independently corroborating, first-hand eye-witness testimony of Fritz picking up the shell casings and, according to Alyea, pocketing them.
Even though Fritz did exactly that with the live round!

Showing that this initial investigation was staggeringly incompetent is not a problem.
But Fritz picking up and pocketing the shell casings and the live round speaks of something beyond incompetence.

[Dan O'meara]

As for when Fritz picked the shell casings up...
Mooney finds the SN with the casings in and calls down for the Crime Lab to be sent over. He then stands guard over the scene:

"And I told him to get the crime lab officers en route, that I had the location spotted.
So I stood guard to see that no one disturbed anything until Captain Will Fritz approached with his group of officers, city officers."

Fritz and his city officers, Boyd and Sims, eventually arrive at the southeast corner where they find Mooney guarding the scene:

"...we went on up to the seventh floor and started searching along the front windows. About this time someone yelled that some empty hulls had been found on the sixth floor. Capt. Fritz, Sims and Boyd went to the southeast window on the sixth floor and saw three empty rifle hulls on the floor near the window. The empty hulls were found about 1:15 PM. Deputy Sheriff Luke E. Mooney said he found them and left them lay as they were. We stayed there with the empty hulls to preserve the scene and a methodical search was started by other officers going from east to west. About 1:20 PM, Lt. J. C. Day and Det. R. L. Studebaker arrived on the sixth floor."
[from "Report on Officer's Duties by R. M. Sims and E. L. Boyd, in regards to the President's murder."]

So there is a moment where just Fritz, Sims, Boyd and Mooney (not to mention Alyea) are stood at the SN while everyone else engages in the systematic search of the sixth floor and before Day and Studebaker arrive. This is the moment when Fritz picks up the shell casings and pockets them
There is no great shock that Fritz denies this and that he is backed up by his men, Boyd and Sims.

[Charles Collins]

As for when Fritz picked the shell casings up...
Mooney finds the SN with the casings in and calls down for the Crime Lab to be sent over. He then stands guard over the scene:

"And I told him to get the crime lab officers en route, that I had the location spotted.
So I stood guard to see that no one disturbed anything until Captain Will Fritz approached with his group of officers, city officers."

Fritz and his city officers, Boyd and Sims, eventually arrive at the southeast corner where they find Mooney guarding the scene:

"...we went on up to the seventh floor and started searching along the front windows. About this time someone yelled that some empty hulls had been found on the sixth floor. Capt. Fritz, Sims and Boyd went to the southeast window on the sixth floor and saw three empty rifle hulls on the floor near the window. The empty hulls were found about 1:15 PM. Deputy Sheriff Luke E. Mooney said he found them and left them lay as they were. We stayed there with the empty hulls to preserve the scene and a methodical search was started by other officers going from east to west. About 1:20 PM, Lt. J. C. Day and Det. R. L. Studebaker arrived on the sixth floor."
[from "Report on Officer's Duties by R. M. Sims and E. L. Boyd, in regards to the President's murder."]

So there is a moment where just Fritz, Sims, Boyd and Mooney (not to mention Alyea) are stood at the SN while everyone else engages in the systematic search of the sixth floor and before Day and Studebaker arrive. This is the moment when Fritz picks up the shell casings and pockets them
There is no great shock that Fritz denies this and that he is backed up by his men, Boyd and Sims.

It appears to me that the essence of your assessment is that Fritz picked up the three shells and pocketed them. Then Fritz later gave these shells to Studebaker and told him to place them (staged) in the sniper’s nest in order to photograph them. Do I have your idea straight?

[Dan O'meara]

It appears to me that the essence of your assessment is that Fritz picked up the three shells and pocketed them. Then Fritz later gave these shells to Studebaker and told him to place them (staged) in the sniper’s nest in order to photograph them. Do I have your idea straight?

According to Alyea that's what happened but let's not get too far ahead of ourselves...

Both Alyea and Mooney independently reported their first-hand eye-witness accounts of Fritz entering the SN, picking up the shell casings and examining them.
As far as both men are concerned Fritz was first officer to do this.
This is what both men reported.

The eye-witness account of Fritz giving the shells to Studebaker is Alyea's.

[Charles Collins]

According to Alyea that's what happened but let's not get too far ahead of ourselves...

Both Alyea and Mooney independently reported their first-hand eye-witness accounts of Fritz entering the SN, picking up the shell casings and examining them.
As far as both men are concerned Fritz was first officer to do this.
This is what both men reported.

The eye-witness account of Fritz giving the shells to Studebaker is Alyea's.

You stated earlier that there are no photos of the shell casings before anyone moved them. So, it appears that you believe that the shells were removed, then later staged for photographs? Is this what you are suggesting?