Truly's False Roll

[Richard Smith]

He's not just some guy minding his business.
He's up to his eyeballs in the events of the day,
Still not on topic though.

There is not enough information to recreate the event with absolute certainty because it was not the "roll call" that was important.  It was the fact that Oswald was missing.  And what constitutes a "roll call" is not a scientific matter that can have only one correct interpretation.  Truly had a memorable encounter with Oswald just after the assassination.  He saw a police officer pull a gun on Oswald while in search of the assassin of the President of the United States which had occurred just minutes beforehand.  Not something that happens every day.  As a result, he knew Oswald, unlike many others, was in the building instead of standing out on the street watching the motorcade.  If Truly had observed Oswald on the street during the motorcade, the fact that he was missing later would not have been as important since Oswald obviously could not have been the assassin.  The police gather information from the folks that are around.  Truly is present for this.  He notices that Oswald is missing during this roll call-like process.  Oswald comes to mind because he IS missing and the dramatic encounter in the lunch room just after the assassination.  Truly asks around and no one has seen Oswald.  He reports it not knowing whether Oswald has anything to do with this or not.  This entire matter becomes summarized as a roll call.  No one anticipates any pedantic nitpicking of every word and event relating to how Oswald is noticed missing because it does not occur to anyone that this is important.  Because it is not. 

[Richard Smith]

There is not enough information to recreate the event with absolute certainty because it was not the "roll call" that was important.

"because"?

It was the fact that Oswald was missing.

No, it was of no relevance really as Truly had plenty of order fillers.

And what constitutes a "roll call" is not a scientific matter that can have only one correct interpretation.

BS, the definition in the dictionary is quite concise, reading names from a list to check attendance.

Truly had a memorable encounter with Oswald just after the assassination.

Okey...

He saw a police officer pull a gun on Oswald while in search of the assassin of the President of the United States which had occurred just minutes beforehand.

Wrong, the gun was out already according to Baker.

Not something that happens every day.

Well, not in this context anyway.

As a result, he knew Oswald, unlike many others, was in the building instead of standing out on the street watching the motorcade.

Sure.

If Truly had observed Oswald on the street during the motorcade, the fact that he was missing later would not have been as important since Oswald obviously could not have been the assassin.

Double BS, Truly did not believe shots were fired from the building and at no time did he suspect Oswald as being involved with anything related to the assassination.

The police gather information from the folks that are around. Truly is present for this.

OK.

He notices that Oswald is missing during this roll call-like process.

OK.

Oswald comes to mind because he IS missing and the dramatic encounter in the lunch room just after the assassination.

BS, apparently is missing and there was no drama.

Truly asks around and no one has seen Oswald.

Not according to Frazier.

He reports it not knowing whether Oswald has anything to do with this or not.

Except there was no need to bother a police Captain with names and addresses when, as you state, there were already low ranking police around doing the roll call-like job.

This entire matter becomes summarized as a roll call. 

By some, apparently, including Truly according to a journalist.

No one anticipates any pedantic nitpicking of every word and event relating to how Oswald is noticed missing because it does not occur to anyone that this is important. 

Untill somebody begins picking over the evidence...

Because it is not.

Just because you can't deal with it doesn't mean it's not important; usual sloppy analysis riddled with errors

Spin us a yarn and tell us what you think happened and why it matters.  Remember you are not a CTer. 

[Mike Orr]

There were several employees who were outside or gone which made it hard to tell who was there and who was not there . Roll Call ?

[Dan O'meara]

Bumped for "Richard Smith":

There is no doubt that an "official" roll call did not take place.
At no time did Truly gather all his men together to discover that only Oswald was missing. We can tell this from Truly's comment:

"I didn't know whether they were all there or not."

BUT...

There was a time on the first floor when Truly's "boys"were being processed with the express intent of finding who was on the sixth floor that day. It was noticed by some of the men that Oswald was missing at that time:

EDDIE PIPER

MR. BALL -- Did you at any time after the shooting miss Lee Oswald—did you notice he wasn't around?

MR.PIPER -- No, sir; I didn't notice it until the lineup. You know, I just figured all the people was there.

MR. BALL -- You did notice it at the lineup, did you?

MR. PIPER -- Yes.

MR. BALL -- Tell us about that.

MR. PIPER -- I did notice it in the lineup.

MR. BALL -- What do you mean by the lineup?

MR. PIPER -- I mean, when they lined us all up and told us to give our name and address and just to go home.

MR. BALL -- You say "they"; who do you mean?

MR. PIPER -- The detective—whoever it was.

MR. BALL -- The police?

MR. PIPER -- Yes; they had the building all surrounded. They went to locking the doors back and front and told us to all come up and then go home, and I told him, I says, "I've got to go down in the basement and get my clothes," and he said, "You can go down and get your clothes and come on back up here, but give me your identification and your name and tell us where you are staying," and everybody heard me say that, I guess, and he let us out of the building, one by one, and I went on out the front door.

JAMES JARMAN

MR. JARMAN -- When we started to line up to show our identification, quite a few of us asked where was Lee. That is what we called him, and he wasn't anywhere around. We started asking each other, have you seen Lee Oswald, and they said no.

BONNIE RAY WILLIAMS

MR. WILLIAMS. -- When we arrived to the first floor, the first thing I noticed was that the policemen had rushed in. I think some firemen came in with a water hose. And then the next thing that happened, these detectives, or maybe FBI--anyway, they stopped us all and they said, "Do you work here?" And we told them yes. And they took our name, address, and they searched everybody. And then the other fellow--I think one fellow asked whether we had been working upstairs. I think we told him yes. They got out all the fellows I think that was working on the sixth floor at the time, and they took us all down to the courthouse, I think, and we had to fill out some affidavits and things.

It would appear that if there was anything resembling a roll call it would have been while they were being processed and it was noticed Oswald was missing, particularly, as Williams points out, the emphasis was on finding who had been working on the sixth floor. It is this "processing" Truly observes when he states:

"There were other officers in other parts of the building taking other employees, like office people's names. I noticed that Lee Oswald was not among these boys."

It would seem reasonable that this is the moment Truly noticed Oswald was missing and decided to take action.
However, as is often the case, things are never that simple.
Detective B. L. Senkel arrives at the TSBD about 12:50pm (With Det. F. M. Turner, Dep. Chief Lumpkin and Forrest Sorrels). He enters the rear door and starts searching floor by floor until he reaches the sixth floor where he finds Fritz, Sims and Boyd. He arrives there around the time the hulls are found in the southeast corner and before the rifle is found:

"Capt. Fritz advised me to take the employees that had been on the sixth floor to the City Hall for statements. Officer C. W. Brown stated he had a car and would drive me to City Hall. Brown and I left the Texas School Book Depository with witnesses W. H. Shelly, Bonnie Ray Williams, and Danny Garcia Arce."

Detective C. W. Brown also enters the TSBD by the rear door and makes his way up to the 6th floor where he contacts Fritz:

"Capt. Fritz advised me and Det. B. L. Senkel, who was already there, to bring the employees of this building to the Homicide Office and get affidavits from them."

Before the rifle is even found Detectives Senkel and Brown are down on the first floor processing the employees specifically trying to find who was on the sixth floor. As a result, around 1:30pm, Shelley, Williams and Arce are taken to City Hall. There is no mention of going back to collect any of the other sixth floor employees - Oswald, Givens, Lovelady and Dougherty. We know with hindsight Oswald has gone and Givens never returned, but what about Lovelady and Dougherty?

When Truly notices Oswald is missing he is with Shelley, so this must be the time when Dets. Senkel and Brown are processing the "boys" and before Shelley, Williams and Arce are taken to City Hall, approximately 1:20 - 1:30pm. It is well known with hindsight that Oswald and Givens are missing from this processing but what is less well known is that Lovelady and Dougherty are also missing.
In his HSCA interview Lovelady states that he takes a group of officers up through the TSBD to the seventh floor. He then takes them down to the 6th floor and is present when the rifle is found around 1:25pm.
Dougherty is also on the sixth floor but even later:

"Well, when the FBI men---I imagine it was who it was---he showed me his credentials, but he asked me who the manager was, and I told him, "Mr. Truly." He told me to go find him. Well, I didn't know where he was so I started from the first floor and Just started looking for him, and .by the time I got to the sixth floor, they had found a gun and shells."

At the time of "processing" Dougherty is wandering around the TSBD actually looking for Truly!
This is why Lovelady and Dougherty are not taken down to City Hall until later - because they are not present when the processing takes place. This is why Truly states that there were still employees missing when he decides that only Oswald is missing.

So how can he be so confident that Oswald has left the building?
I believe the answer comes from Oswald.
During his interrogations he reveals that before he leaves the TSBD he meets Shelley near the front entrance and it is on Shelley's advice that he actually leaves. If there is anything to this then Shelley is in a perfect position to tell Truly that Oswald has already left. Obviously, neither man says this is the case but it is the only way I can think of that Truly can be so certain that Oswald is missing.

[Charles Collins]

Bumped for "Richard Smith":

There is no doubt that an "official" roll call did not take place.
At no time did Truly gather all his men together to discover that only Oswald was missing. We can tell this from Truly's comment:

"I didn't know whether they were all there or not."

BUT...

There was a time on the first floor when Truly's "boys"were being processed with the express intent of finding who was on the sixth floor that day. It was noticed by some of the men that Oswald was missing at that time:

EDDIE PIPER

MR. BALL -- Did you at any time after the shooting miss Lee Oswald—did you notice he wasn't around?

MR.PIPER -- No, sir; I didn't notice it until the lineup. You know, I just figured all the people was there.

MR. BALL -- You did notice it at the lineup, did you?

MR. PIPER -- Yes.

MR. BALL -- Tell us about that.

MR. PIPER -- I did notice it in the lineup.

MR. BALL -- What do you mean by the lineup?

MR. PIPER -- I mean, when they lined us all up and told us to give our name and address and just to go home.

MR. BALL -- You say "they"; who do you mean?

MR. PIPER -- The detective—whoever it was.

MR. BALL -- The police?

MR. PIPER -- Yes; they had the building all surrounded. They went to locking the doors back and front and told us to all come up and then go home, and I told him, I says, "I've got to go down in the basement and get my clothes," and he said, "You can go down and get your clothes and come on back up here, but give me your identification and your name and tell us where you are staying," and everybody heard me say that, I guess, and he let us out of the building, one by one, and I went on out the front door.

JAMES JARMAN

MR. JARMAN -- When we started to line up to show our identification, quite a few of us asked where was Lee. That is what we called him, and he wasn't anywhere around. We started asking each other, have you seen Lee Oswald, and they said no.

BONNIE RAY WILLIAMS

MR. WILLIAMS. -- When we arrived to the first floor, the first thing I noticed was that the policemen had rushed in. I think some firemen came in with a water hose. And then the next thing that happened, these detectives, or maybe FBI--anyway, they stopped us all and they said, "Do you work here?" And we told them yes. And they took our name, address, and they searched everybody. And then the other fellow--I think one fellow asked whether we had been working upstairs. I think we told him yes. They got out all the fellows I think that was working on the sixth floor at the time, and they took us all down to the courthouse, I think, and we had to fill out some affidavits and things.

It would appear that if there was anything resembling a roll call it would have been while they were being processed and it was noticed Oswald was missing, particularly, as Williams points out, the emphasis was on finding who had been working on the sixth floor. It is this "processing" Truly observes when he states:

"There were other officers in other parts of the building taking other employees, like office people's names. I noticed that Lee Oswald was not among these boys."

It would seem reasonable that this is the moment Truly noticed Oswald was missing and decided to take action.
However, as is often the case, things are never that simple.
Detective B. L. Senkel arrives at the TSBD about 12:50pm (With Det. F. M. Turner, Dep. Chief Lumpkin and Forrest Sorrels). He enters the rear door and starts searching floor by floor until he reaches the sixth floor where he finds Fritz, Sims and Boyd. He arrives there around the time the hulls are found in the southeast corner and before the rifle is found:

"Capt. Fritz advised me to take the employees that had been on the sixth floor to the City Hall for statements. Officer C. W. Brown stated he had a car and would drive me to City Hall. Brown and I left the Texas School Book Depository with witnesses W. H. Shelly, Bonnie Ray Williams, and Danny Garcia Arce."

Detective C. W. Brown also enters the TSBD by the rear door and makes his way up to the 6th floor where he contacts Fritz:

"Capt. Fritz advised me and Det. B. L. Senkel, who was already there, to bring the employees of this building to the Homicide Office and get affidavits from them."

Before the rifle is even found Detectives Senkel and Brown are down on the first floor processing the employees specifically trying to find who was on the sixth floor. As a result, around 1:30pm, Shelley, Williams and Arce are taken to City Hall. There is no mention of going back to collect any of the other sixth floor employees - Oswald, Givens, Lovelady and Dougherty. We know with hindsight Oswald has gone and Givens never returned, but what about Lovelady and Dougherty?

When Truly notices Oswald is missing he is with Shelley, so this must be the time when Dets. Senkel and Brown are processing the "boys" and before Shelley, Williams and Arce are taken to City Hall, approximately 1:20 - 1:30pm. It is well known with hindsight that Oswald and Givens are missing from this processing but what is less well known is that Lovelady and Dougherty are also missing.
In his HSCA interview Lovelady states that he takes a group of officers up through the TSBD to the seventh floor. He then takes them down to the 6th floor and is present when the rifle is found around 1:25pm.
Dougherty is also on the sixth floor but even later:

"Well, when the FBI men---I imagine it was who it was---he showed me his credentials, but he asked me who the manager was, and I told him, "Mr. Truly." He told me to go find him. Well, I didn't know where he was so I started from the first floor and Just started looking for him, and .by the time I got to the sixth floor, they had found a gun and shells."

At the time of "processing" Dougherty is wandering around the TSBD actually looking for Truly!
This is why Lovelady and Dougherty are not taken down to City Hall until later - because they are not present when the processing takes place. This is why Truly states that there were still employees missing when he decides that only Oswald is missing.

So how can he be so confident that Oswald has left the building?
I believe the answer comes from Oswald.
During his interrogations he reveals that before he leaves the TSBD he meets Shelley near the front entrance and it is on Shelley's advice that he actually leaves. If there is anything to this then Shelley is in a perfect position to tell Truly that Oswald has already left. Obviously, neither man says this is the case but it is the only way I can think of that Truly can be so certain that Oswald is missing.

Did you leave out this testimony from BRW on purpose?


Mr. McCLOY. Do you know whether or not anybody got out of the building before the police could get there? Did any of your friends or the people you were working with, did you hear whether any of them had left the building before the building was closed?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir; I heard Mr. Truly-he said that-he mentioned that-he said, "Where is Lee?" That is what everybody called him. "Where is Lee?", he said, and therefore I assume he did not know where Lee was, that he was out of the building, because everybody else was there. And there was another colored fellow by the name of Charles Givens. He wasn't in the building at the time. He was downtown somewhere.
Mr. McCLOY. Had he been at the building at the time of the shooting--Givens?
Mr. WILLIAMS. I don't believe he had.
Mr. DULLES. What did Mr. Truly say about Lee not being there?
Mr. WILLIAMS. The only thing I heard him say is--I think an officer asked him, "Is everyone here?" And he said, "Where is Lee?"--like that, you know.
Mr. DULLES. Mr. Truly said that?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.


So according to BRW Truly was asked if everyone was there by one of the officers. And that is when Truly realized that LHO was missing.

[Jerry Freeman]

Did you leave out this testimony from BRW on purpose? So according to BRW---- 

Mr. BALL. You say you went back upstairs. Where did you go?
Mr. WILLIAMS. I went back up to the sixth floor.
Mr. BALL. Why did you go to the sixth floor?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Well, at the time everybody was talking like they was going to watch from the sixth floor. I think Billy Lovelady said he wanted to watch from up there. And also my friend; this Spanish boy, by the name of Danny Arce, we had agreed at first to come back up to the sixth floor. So I thought everybody was going to be on the sixth floor.
Mr. BALL. Did anybody go back?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Nobody came back up. So I just left.
Mr. BALL. Where did you eat your lunch?
Mr. WILLIAMS. I ate my lunch--I am not sure about this, but the third or the fourth set of windows, I believe.
Mr. BALL. Facing on what street?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Facing Elm Street.
Mr. McCLOY. What floor?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Sixth floor.
Mr. DULLES. You ate your lunch on the sixth floor?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.
Mr. DULLES. And you were all alone?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. What did you sit on while you ate your lunch?
Mr. WILLIAMS. First of all, I remember there was some boxes behind me.

It practically sounds like your Bonnie Ray ate his lunch in the snipers nest
Talk about convoluted.

[Charles Collins]

It practically sounds like your Bonnie Ray ate his lunch in the snipers nest
Talk about convoluted.

The only thing convoluted is how one has to twist selected and isolated testimony to make-believe BRW ate his lunch in the sniper's nest. A little later BRW diagrams the area where he ate his lunch.

Mr. BALL. I will. I am going to introduce them all. Let's go back to the diagram, which is 483. Could you mark on this diagram the window that is shown in this picture 484 that is, the place where you were sitting and eating your lunch?
Mr. WILLIAMS. That would be facing Elm Street. I would say right around in this.
Mr. BALL. In other words, you are marking here something between--some area between the third and the fourth window.
Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. You are not able to tell exactly?
Mr. WILLIAMS. No; I am not.
Mr. BALL. The witness has drawn a red rectangle to show the approximate area which runs from about the center. of the second row of windows from the southeast corner over to about the fourth pane of windows.
Mr. WILLIAMS. I would say about right in here, third or fourth.
Mr. BALL. Third or fourth?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Now, you have made two marks, so I will identify the last mark. Between the third and fourth, is that right?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. We will mark the rectangle, and we will mark it "W-3" and "W-4" the end of the lines.

[Rick Plant]

There were several employees who were outside or gone which made it hard to tell who was there and who was not there . Roll Call ?

Correct.

Buell Frazier has stated on more than one occasion there was an employee "roll call" and Oswald was the only employee not present.