Truly's False Roll

[Jerry Freeman]

Based on their testimonies, it appears to me that:
1. Givens went back to the sixth floor to get his cigarettes and saw LHO at about 11:55.
2. Then BRW arrived back on the sixth floor after Givens had gone back down (about 12:00).
3. BRW ate his lunch on the sixth floor but testified that he didn't see or hear LHO.
So why is it that you believe that both Givens and BRW didn't tell the truth?

Ever see the movie called "Clue"? That's what this reminds me of. Everybody moved around and just missed everybody else
Chas Givens------
https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,1960.msg52976.html#msg52976

[Charles Collins]

Ever see the movie called "Clue"? That's what this reminds me of. Everybody moved around and just missed everybody else
Chas Givens------
https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,1960.msg52976.html#msg52976

I don’t remember seeing that movie, but I think that I understand the concept. Do you understand that it is entirely possible that BRW and Givens are telling the truth? That it is not impossible for them to have just missed each other on the sixth floor and that LHO simply had to stay hidden and quiet while BRW was on that floor?

[Dan O'meara]

I don’t remember seeing that movie, but I think that I understand the concept. Do you understand that it is entirely possible that BRW and Givens are telling the truth? That it is not impossible for them to have just missed each other on the sixth floor and that LHO simply had to stay hidden and quiet while BRW was on that floor?

In this scenario the workers on the 6th floor, including Williams and Givens, have an elevator race down to the first floor and most of them hear or see Oswald still working on the 5th or 6th floor. While Williams collects his lunch Givens realises he's left his cigarettes on the 6th floor so goes back up where he sees Oswald, apparently still working. As Givens heads back down Williams is heading up, it is during this time that Oswald takes up his position in the SN and waits there quietly while Williams has his lunch.
Would you agree with this assessment?

[Charles Collins]

In this scenario the workers on the 6th floor, including Williams and Givens, have an elevator race down to the first floor and most of them hear or see Oswald still working on the 5th or 6th floor. While Williams collects his lunch Givens realises he's left his cigarettes on the 6th floor so goes back up where he sees Oswald, apparently still working. As Givens heads back down Williams is heading up, it is during this time that Oswald takes up his position in the SN and waits there quietly while Williams has his lunch.
Would you agree with this assessment?

That’s the general idea that makes sense to me. But I am reasonably sure that you are planning to spring some conflicting account(s). Do you agree with this assessment (ESP)?

[Dan O'meara]

That’s the general idea that makes sense to me. But I am reasonably sure that you are planning to spring some conflicting account(s). Do you agree with this assessment (ESP)?

 
You're starting to make me believe in ESP.

The trap that I'm about to spring involves Eddie Piper and his testimony that he saw Oswald around 12:00 as he was heading for his lunch.
How does Oswald get down to the first floor to interact with Piper in the scenario you are proposing?

[Charles Collins]

You're starting to make me believe in ESP.

The trap that I'm about to spring involves Eddie Piper and his testimony that he saw Oswald around 12:00 as he was heading for his lunch.
How does Oswald get down to the first floor to interact with Piper in the scenario you are proposing?

Is this the account that you are referencing?


SHERIFF'S DEPARTMENT
COUNTY OF DALLAS

Before me, the undersigned authority, on this the 23rd day of November A.D. 1963 personally appeared Eddie Piper. Address 3402 Munger Avenue, Dallas. Age 55, Phone No. TA 1 2190 Wks: Janitor - Texas School Bk Dep.

Deposes and Says:

I have been employed as janitor for the Texas School book Depository for a little over 4 years. I do the packing of the books as well as lock up at night. I came to work yesterday about 10:00 AM and I worked until 2:00 PM. There has been a man that I know only as "Lee" who has been working there about 5 weeks. He fills the orders and I pack the orders. Yesterday at about 12:00 Noon, this fello Lee says to me, "I'm going up to eat" and I went on to my lunch. I went to the front window on the first floor and ate my lunch and waited to see the President's parade go by. I saw the President pass and heard some shots and looked at the clock there and saw it was 12:55PM. The shots seemed to me like they came from up inside the building. It was about 1:00 PM when the police made us vacate the building and as we were being checked out, I noticed that "Lee" wasn't with us and I mentioned to some of the employees there checking out that Lee wasn't there and somebody said, he must have already gone out. This man Lee has never talked much to anyone and hardly said anything to me. He kept pretty much to himself and hardly even answer when I would say "Goodmorning".

/s/Eddie Piper

Subscribed and sworn to before me on this th 23rd day of November A.D. 1963

/s/Rosemarry Allen
Notary Public, Dallas County, Texas


When I see how far off from reality that the other times of day that Eddie Piper came up with are, I have absolutely no confidence in the time of day that he said he saw LHO “going up to eat”.

But, unless my ESP is failing me, I am positive that you have your own interpretation that you are going to use to try to show that Eddie Piper was correct.

[Dan O'meara]

Is this the account that you are referencing?


SHERIFF'S DEPARTMENT
COUNTY OF DALLAS

Before me, the undersigned authority, on this the 23rd day of November A.D. 1963 personally appeared Eddie Piper. Address 3402 Munger Avenue, Dallas. Age 55, Phone No. TA 1 2190 Wks: Janitor - Texas School Bk Dep.

Deposes and Says:

I have been employed as janitor for the Texas School book Depository for a little over 4 years. I do the packing of the books as well as lock up at night. I came to work yesterday about 10:00 AM and I worked until 2:00 PM. There has been a man that I know only as "Lee" who has been working there about 5 weeks. He fills the orders and I pack the orders. Yesterday at about 12:00 Noon, this fello Lee says to me, "I'm going up to eat" and I went on to my lunch. I went to the front window on the first floor and ate my lunch and waited to see the President's parade go by. I saw the President pass and heard some shots and looked at the clock there and saw it was 12:55PM. The shots seemed to me like they came from up inside the building. It was about 1:00 PM when the police made us vacate the building and as we were being checked out, I noticed that "Lee" wasn't with us and I mentioned to some of the employees there checking out that Lee wasn't there and somebody said, he must have already gone out. This man Lee has never talked much to anyone and hardly said anything to me. He kept pretty much to himself and hardly even answer when I would say "Goodmorning".

/s/Eddie Piper

Subscribed and sworn to before me on this th 23rd day of November A.D. 1963

/s/Rosemarry Allen
Notary Public, Dallas County, Texas


When I see how far off from reality that the other times of day that Eddie Piper came up with are, I have absolutely no confidence in the time of day that he said he saw LHO “going up to eat”.

But, unless my ESP is failing me, I am positive that you have your own interpretation that you are going to use to try to show that Eddie Piper was correct.

Piper is consistent about the time he saw Oswald. From his WC testimony:

Mr. BALL. What time was it that you spoke to Oswald and said you thought you would have your lunch?
Mr. PIPER. Just about 12 o'clock.

Lunch was from 12:00 to 12:45pm so it makes sense it was around this time.
Piper takes his lunch around 12:00pm so he can be fairly confident about the time.

James Jarman makes this point in his affidavit on the 23rd:

"The last time I saw Lee Oswald on Friday, November 22, 1963 was between 11:30 a.m. and 12:00 noon when he was taking the elevator upstairs to go get some boxes. At about 11:45 a.m. all of the employees who were working on the 6th floor came downstairs and we were all out on the street at about 12:00 o'clock noon"

As Oswald was seen/heard by the men coming down from the 6th floor he must have went up there sometime between 11:30 and 11:45pm. At least fifteen minutes before Piper goes for lunch.
The problem is, if Oswald has come back down to the first floor around 12:00pm then he's not up there when Givens says he is and there's no way he can sneak past Williams having his lunch to hide in the SN.

[Jerry Freeman]