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Author Topic: Colors of Blue and Gold  (Read 77818 times)

Offline Joe Elliott

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Re: Colors of Blue and Gold
« Reply #208 on: April 28, 2023, 03:21:06 AM »
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Fewer and fewer people are buying into the narrative that Ukraine can win this war.

Russia may ultimately be unable to takeover all of Ukraine but Ukraine may ultimately be unable to kick the Russians out.

So a stalemate remains the most plausible outcome for the near future.

Totally unable to kick Russia out of all Ukraine? I would agree. So long as Russia doesn't give up.

Certain parts of Ukraine are going to be very tough.

Luhansk and Donetsk. As the Russians are driven back here, they get closer and closer to the border of Russia. It becomes easier and easier to get supplies up to the front as the Russians retreat.

Zaporizhzhia, Kherson and Crimea? A very different story. Those regions require a long, exposed supply line back into Russia. The sort of offensive the Ukrainians had in the Kharkiv region last September, through Zaporizhzhia would be catastrophic. This "Russian Land Bridge" through Zaporizhzhia. It's hard to imagine a worst strategic setup in modern history. A long, fairly narrow corridor, much longer than it is wide, backed up a shallow sea, the Sea of Atoz, too shallow for ships to navigate, looks very vulerable. If the Ukrainians drive to that sea, western Zaporizhxhia, Kherson and Crimea would have to be kept supplied over the partly destroyed Crimea bridge. That won't work.

I can think of no example in military history, that such a narrow corridor, has to be maintained, for many months at a time, in order to a large section of land to be held.

Question: Can anyone name a similar example?

If Crimea falls, Russia may decide to carry on the war in Luhansk and Donetsk. Or they may decide to call it quits. That this fiasco has gone on long enough.

Whatever happens, Ukraine is not going to quit. In 1941, some Ukrainians fought against both Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union. And even though occupied by enemies for year after year, were not suppressed until 1949. It took the Soviet Union longer to totally defeat Ukraine than it did for them to defeat Nazi Germany.

And as long as Ukraine doesn't quit, a Russian invasion of the Baltic States, Finland, Poland and Germany is not going to happen. And American troops will stay out of the fight. Let's continue to support them.

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Re: Colors of Blue and Gold
« Reply #208 on: April 28, 2023, 03:21:06 AM »


Offline Jon Banks

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Re: Colors of Blue and Gold
« Reply #209 on: April 28, 2023, 02:24:13 PM »
Russia will give up the northern Donbas before they retreat from Crimea.

I don't think some here understand the strategic importance of Crimea to Russia's national security. If Russia loses their naval bases in Crimea they could lose access to the Black Sea. Which would severely hurt them militarily and economically.


Offline Martin Weidmann

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Re: Colors of Blue and Gold
« Reply #210 on: April 28, 2023, 09:09:30 PM »
Russia will give up the northern Donbas before they retreat from Crimea.

I don't think some here understand the strategic importance of Crimea to Russia's national security. If Russia loses their naval bases in Crimea they could lose access to the Black Sea. Which would severely hurt them militarily and economically.

Spot on. Crimea has always been a hot spot. Russia has already lost a war over Crimea once (1853 - 1856) which took them decades to recover from and that was before modern war ships and Russia's need for a harbor that not only gives them access to the Black Sea but the Mediterramean Sea and beyond as well.

It is very possible that Russia will negotiate a peace if they lose control of Crimea. In such an event they might even be willing to give up all other occupied land. Which, of course, is exactly the reason why Ukraine should focus on cutting off Russia's supply lines to the Crimea.

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Re: Colors of Blue and Gold
« Reply #210 on: April 28, 2023, 09:09:30 PM »


Online Richard Smith

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Re: Colors of Blue and Gold
« Reply #211 on: April 29, 2023, 06:11:57 PM »
Fewer and fewer people are buying into the narrative that Ukraine can win this war.

Russia may ultimately be unable to takeover all of Ukraine but Ukraine may ultimately be unable to kick the Russians out.

So a stalemate remains the most plausible outcome for the near future.

I'm not sure Russia ever intended to take over all of Ukraine.  There are disputed regions in Ukraine in which there is a high percentage of ethnic Russians who prefer Russian rule.  The fighting has been limited mostly to those areas.  The US media and government have exaggerated Russia's objectives to even suggest that they pose a danger to NATO countries.  There is zero evidence that Russia has any intention to invade Poland, Finland or any other country.  This narrative conflicts with the other narrative espoused that Russia ia a paper tiger incapable of even winning in regions of Ukraine.  But we are supposed to believe that they are going to invade a NATO country etc?  It's ridiculous.

Offline Jon Banks

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Re: Colors of Blue and Gold
« Reply #212 on: April 29, 2023, 11:42:41 PM »
Spot on. Crimea has always been a hot spot. Russia has already lost a war over Crimea once (1853 - 1856) which took them decades to recover from and that was before modern war ships and Russia's need for a harbor that not only gives them access to the Black Sea but the Mediterramean Sea and beyond as well.

It is very possible that Russia will negotiate a peace if they lose control of Crimea. In such an event they might even be willing to give up all other occupied land. Which, of course, is exactly the reason why Ukraine should focus on cutting off Russia's supply lines to the Crimea.

No matter what Ukraine says, they’re not going to take Crimea by force.

It could become a frozen conflict where Ukraine never officially acknowledges that Crimea is part of Russia, like Syria and the Golan Heights.

But realistically, their chances of taking Crimea by force are very low.

« Last Edit: April 29, 2023, 11:43:34 PM by Jon Banks »

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Re: Colors of Blue and Gold
« Reply #212 on: April 29, 2023, 11:42:41 PM »


Offline Jon Banks

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Re: Colors of Blue and Gold
« Reply #213 on: April 29, 2023, 11:48:25 PM »
I'm not sure Russia ever intended to take over all of Ukraine.  There are disputed regions in Ukraine in which there is a high percentage of ethnic Russians who prefer Russian rule.  The fighting has been limited mostly to those areas.  The US media and government have exaggerated Russia's objectives to even suggest that they pose a danger to NATO countries.  There is zero evidence that Russia has any intention to invade Poland, Finland or any other country.  This narrative conflicts with the other narrative espoused that Russia ia a paper tiger incapable of even winning in regions of Ukraine.  But we are supposed to believe that they are going to invade a NATO country etc?  It's ridiculous.

Yeah, I have similar thoughts. The fighting in the Donbas started in 2014. Russia has been backing the Ukrainian separatists in eastern Ukraine. Western Ukraine is more ethnically Polish and Hungarian while eastern Ukraine is more culturally Russian. So it makes sense that Russia is focusing on the east.

I do however think that briefly when the invasion started there was a failed attempt to capture or kill Zelensky. Once the run on Kyiv failed, the Russians pulled their forces back and have focused on eastern Ukraine.

Offline Rick Plant

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Re: Colors of Blue and Gold
« Reply #214 on: May 01, 2023, 03:16:27 AM »
Faux News is a joke always trying to protect indicted and twice impeached Criminal Donald.

Fox News caught editing out Trump’s brag that he would have let Putin “take over” parts of Ukraine
https://www.salon.com/2023/03/08/fox-news-caught-editing-out-trumps-brag-that-he-would-have-let-putin-take-over-parts-of-ukraine/

Online Richard Smith

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Re: Colors of Blue and Gold
« Reply #215 on: May 01, 2023, 01:26:56 PM »
Faux News is a joke always trying to protect indicted and twice impeached Criminal Donald.

Fox News caught editing out Trump’s brag that he would have let Putin “take over” parts of Ukraine
https://www.salon.com/2023/03/08/fox-news-caught-editing-out-trumps-brag-that-he-would-have-let-putin-take-over-parts-of-ukraine/

LOL.  Remember "minor incursion" Joe giving Russia the signal to invade through his weakness?  What is Ukraine Joe's plan now?  The disputed regions have been reduced to a moonscape.  Hundreds of billions have already been spent.  There is no end in sight.  Tens of thousands are dead due to Old Joe's weakness.  They will curse Biden's name in Ukraine for centuries. 

"It's one thing if it's a minor incursion and then we end up having a fight about what to do and not do."

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Re: Colors of Blue and Gold
« Reply #215 on: May 01, 2023, 01:26:56 PM »