Colors of Blue and Gold

[Jon Banks]

A classic modern propaganda tactic dating back to WWI is to allege atrocities are being committed against civilians.  Orphans are being massacred.  Hospitals bombed.  Nuns are being ravaged etc.  There are people whose job it is to enflame the public for a cause, and they know the triggers.  No doubt that Russians have committed crimes but that holds true for Ukranians.  It's a war.  People are dying due to Biden's weakness and incompetence.  It will continue until someone with a plan comes along to bring it to an end.  Ukraine Joe is not that person.  His "as long as it takes" nonsense just relies on the fighting to continue until the Russians make a unilateral decision that they are done.  That could be next month or ten years from now.  It puts the decision solely in Putin's hands.

This is true. Almost every war is framed in “good vs evil” terms.

The true intentions of the war are typically overshadowed by humanitarian justifications.

As for last night’s missile strikes where Ukraine claimed to have intercepted “all the missiles”, the US has confirmed that one of the Patriot missile batteries given to Ukraine was damaged:

CNN - US assessing potential damage of Patriot missile defense system following Russian attack near Kyiv
A US-made Patriot air defense system was likely damaged, but not destroyed, as the result of a Russian missile barrage in and around Kyiv early Tuesday morning local time, a US official tells CNN.

The US is still assessing to what degree the system was damaged, the official said. That will determine whether the system needs to be pulled back entirely or simply repaired on the spot by Ukrainians forces.

https://www.cnn.com/2023/05/16/politics/patriot-missile-damage-ukraine/index.html

[Martin Weidmann]

You sound unhinged on the topic.  There is no doubt that "Europe" has made some token donations, but the US is providing the vast majority of military support.  Hundreds of billions.  How about this?  Why don't you travel to Ukraine and fight the Russians?   You need to stop them there - right?  Or they will overrun "Europe."   Another of so many lies that have been told to the gullible.  Russian collusion, Hunter's laptop the product of disinformation, COVID did not originate in a lab, the Russians blew up their own pipeline.  HA HA HA.

There is no doubt that "Europe" has made some token donations, but the US is providing the vast majority of military support.  Hundreds of billions.

You can repeat a lie a thousand times, it will never become true. Get your facts straight and show us some actual evidence for the "hundreds of billions" that the US has provided.

You need to stop them there - right?  Or they will overrun "Europe." 

Stop making up stuff. Nobody is saying that Russia will overrun Europe, because they won't. They don't have the guts or the means to take on NATO. But yes they need to be stopped in Ukraine, for two reasons;

(1) There are more regions along the Russian border that Putin would like to annex and (2) Not stopping Putin gives a signal to all the dictators of the world that they can do as they please because nobody will do anything about it.

China will invade Taiwan if they see an opportunity and the American economy will suffer badly as a consequence. The mere fact that you don't understand something so basic tells us all we need to know about you.

[Martin Weidmann]

Russia is fighting a modern military, not the Taliban or Iraq. The US hasn’t faced a peer military opponent since maybe the Korean war. So the fact that Ukraine is able to intercept some or many of Russia’s missiles doesn’t surprise me. This is what modern warfare between two peer military competitors looks like.

It may very well be true that some or most of Russia’s missiles were intercepted. But there’s video footage from Kyiv last night confirming that some targets were hit by missiles.

Ukraine’s claim that “100% were intercepted” is likely disinformation.

Ukraine has every incentive to lie and embellish stuff in order to justify asking the US and other countries to continue supporting them. But we and the Press aren’t obligated to unconditionally support Ukraine or believe their BS…

Ukraine has every incentive to lie and embellish stuff in order to justify asking the US and other countries to continue supporting them.

There is no doubt that Ukraine is embellishing stuff to get more aid. A big part of war is propaganda. Russia does it as well. But you seem to think, rather foolishly, that countries supporting Ukraine are simply doing so based on propaganda. That's simply not true.

But we and the Press aren’t obligated to unconditionally support Ukraine or believe their BS…

True.. but should we believe the Russian foreign minister when he claimed (recently) that Ukraine actually invaded Russia?
This isn't a conflict that just surfaced. Russia has been at this game for years when they simply stole the Crimea from Ukraine.
Russia is the sole aggressor here and as such the media (or at least most of them) are on the right side of history by supporting Ukraine.

See the photo in my last post and the photo below:



An ammo depot was bombed, not civilians or civilian infrastructure. That some contestants in Eurovision live there is probably a coincidence.

These photos are utterly meaningless, as we don't know where and when they were taken.

That some contestants in Eurovision live there is probably a coincidence.

Yeah right.... Ukraine won the song contest last year. Russia is banned from participating. The song contest is one of the television events that draws the largest audience every year. And you actually believe that Russia attacking the hometown of the contestants a day before the event is a "coincidence"..... WOW..... I mean WOW.....

I have a bridge in London for sale.... would you be interested?

[Jon Banks]

Ukraine has every incentive to lie and embellish stuff in order to justify asking the US and other countries to continue supporting them.

There is no doubt that Ukraine is embellishing stuff to get more aid. A big part of war is propaganda. Russia does it as well. But you seem to think, rather foolishly, that countries supporting Ukraine are simply doing so based on propaganda. That's simply not true.

It’s clear as day that countries supporting Ukraine are propagandizing their own populations in order to justify sending billions in aid to Ukraine.

Polling shows that support for aid to Ukraine is higher when the public perceives them as “winning” and lower when Russia is perceived as “winning”.

So it’s important for the western media to avoid portraying Ukraine as fighting an unwinnable war even though that likely is the reality of the war currently. A stalemate may be the best-case scenario for Ukraine. But few western media outlets or western politicians express that view as plainly as I have.

Brookings Institute:

 “As we have shown in previous polls, the degree of support for Ukraine is highly correlated with the public’s evaluation of Ukraine winning or Russia losing. In the October poll, we noted stories stressing Ukrainian successes and Russian failures, which may have accounted for higher confidence in the outcome. In the newest poll, there is a marked drop in the assessment that Ukraine is winning, and Russia is losing — a drop that echoes the decline in the public’s preparedness to pay a price for supporting Ukraine: Overall, the assessment that Russia is losing fell from 48% in October to 37% in April, and the assessment that Ukraine is succeeding went from 43% in October to 26% in April. It is also notable that there were parallel drops in the assessments of both Republicans and Democrats.”

https://www.brookings.edu/blog/order-from-chaos/2023/04/28/americans-show-signs-of-impatience-with-ukraine-war/

[Martin Weidmann]

It’s clear as day that countries supporting Ukraine are propagandizing their own populations in order to justify sending billions in aid to Ukraine.

Polling shows that support for aid to Ukraine is higher when the public perceives them as “winning” and lower when Russia is perceived as “winning”.

So it’s important for the western media to avoid portraying Ukraine as fighting an unwinnable war even though that likely is the reality of the war currently. A stalemate may be the best-case scenario for Ukraine. But few western media outlets or western politicians express that view as plainly as I have.

Brookings Institute:

 “As we have shown in previous polls, the degree of support for Ukraine is highly correlated with the public’s evaluation of Ukraine winning or Russia losing. In the October poll, we noted stories stressing Ukrainian successes and Russian failures, which may have accounted for higher confidence in the outcome. In the newest poll, there is a marked drop in the assessment that Ukraine is winning, and Russia is losing — a drop that echoes the decline in the public’s preparedness to pay a price for supporting Ukraine: Overall, the assessment that Russia is losing fell from 48% in October to 37% in April, and the assessment that Ukraine is succeeding went from 43% in October to 26% in April. It is also notable that there were parallel drops in the assessments of both Republicans and Democrats.”

https://www.brookings.edu/blog/order-from-chaos/2023/04/28/americans-show-signs-of-impatience-with-ukraine-war/

It’s clear as day that countries supporting Ukraine are propagandizing their own populations in order to justify sending billions in aid to Ukraine.

It is clear as day that you haven't got a clue what you are talking about. But this exactly is what a pro-Russian fool would argue.

So it’s important for the western media to avoid portraying Ukraine as fighting an unwinnable war even though that likely is the reality of the war currently. A stalemate may be the best-case scenario for Ukraine. But few western media outlets or western politicians express that view as plainly as I have.

BS. Unlike the right wing US media, European media, for the biggest part, are just reporting on the conflict without predicting an outcome. The reason why Western media and politicians have not expressed your view is simply because your view is biased, speculative and probably wishful thinking.

Btw. why are you only looking at this for the Ukraine perspective? Can Russia win this war? No they can't. We know that by now, so what's the best-case scenario for Russia?

[Rick Plant]

The Ukraine Disaster Reveals How Trump Corrupted U.S. Diplomacy
October 4, 2019
https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2019/10/donald-trump-state-department-kurt-volker-ukraine

[Jon Banks]

Can Russia win this war? No they can't. We know that by now, so what's the best-case scenario for Russia?

I don’t think either side can outright win the war. At this point, a stalemate is the best-case scenario for both sides.

For Ukraine, the Zelensky government survives Putin’s attempt to break them. The cost of the war to Russia likely buys a few decades of peace between Russia and Ukraine once this war ends.

For Russia, Putin stays in power (assuming he’s still in power when the war ends) and Ukraine stays out of NATO.

There likely won’t be any clear winners when this war ends.

[Rick Plant]

Anyone attacking President Biden for helping Ukraine to stop a murderous dictator like Putin is anti American.

The majority of Americans support President Biden, NATO, and Ukraine as a new PEW poll indicates.


Americans Hold Positive Feelings Toward NATO and Ukraine, See Russia as an Enemy

Majorities of U.S. adults have favorable views of Ukraine itself, as well as the North Atlantic Treaty Organization, and have confidence in Ukraine’s leader, President Volodymyr Zelenskyy. At the same time, few have positive opinions of Russia or confidence in its ruler, President Vladimir Putin. And a 64% majority view Russia as an enemy to the United States, rather than as a competitor or partner.

https://www.pewresearch.org/global/2023/05/10/americans-hold-positive-feelings-toward-nato-and-ukraine-see-russia-as-an-enemy/