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Author Topic: Colors of Blue and Gold  (Read 75455 times)

Online Jon Banks

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Re: Colors of Blue and Gold
« Reply #328 on: May 23, 2023, 09:57:53 PM »
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Then stop believing in Russia and start believing in Ukraine.

In think you fear that the war in Ukraine won't be a stalemate. I think you fear that Ukraine will win its freedom.

This war has already lasted longer than most modern wars and there’s no signs of it ending any time soon.

Neither side can score a knockout blow. Ukraine’s “Spring” counteroffensive is unlikely to begin before the summer (if it isn’t delayed til Fall).

Now that the war is at a stalemate, it’s a good time to start peace talks but unfortunately neither side is accepting that they can’t achieve their respective objectives via military force.

It’s fine to support Ukraine and want them to succeed at driving Russia out but the reality of the situation is that an outright Ukraine victory over Russia is unlikely…

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Re: Colors of Blue and Gold
« Reply #328 on: May 23, 2023, 09:57:53 PM »


Offline Joe Elliott

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Re: Colors of Blue and Gold
« Reply #329 on: May 24, 2023, 09:11:08 AM »

You couldn't be more wrong about me.

I believe in democracy and reject the idea that our leaders must do undemocratic or anti-liberal things to save our democracy.

So you are a fellow believer in democracy.

So you believe America's founding fathers were correct to fight against the British. To achieve democracy. Even though they were fighting a 'forever war'. A war they could not possibly win. A war the British Empire was bound to win, sooner or later. Or so it was said. But we both believe in democracy so much, we agree that it was best not for the founding fathers to give into their fears and to fight tyranny.

And I imagine, that like me, you believe Churchill was right to not negotiate with Hitler. Why negotiate with someone who keeps attacking others, makes agreements that this will be the last attack. And then attack again. Even though this was clearly a 'forever' war. A war, that at best, Britain could never win and would just drag on year after year with Germany. And at worst, a war that Britain must eventually lose, to the larger country's powerful U-boat fleet or aircraft, or both, which could isolate Britain from imports, starving it.

So I am perplex that you, a 'fellow believer in democracy', don't support the war in Ukraine. That people who support democracy are not put off by the possibility that their fight is a doomed on. That at best, the war will go on indefinitely. Or, at worst, they are doomed.

Ukraine is not doomed. Russia has a long history of losing wars that, on paper, they should be able to crush easily. On paper, Russia should have won the Crimean war, with it's huge army. On paper, Russia should have won the war against Japan in 1904. On paper, Russia should have won the war against Poland at the end of World War I.

These are the times that try men's souls: The summer soldier and the sunshine patriot will, in this crisis, shrink from the service of their country; but he that stands it now, deserves the love and thanks of man and woman. Tyranny, like Hell, is not easily conquered; yet we have this consolation with us, that the harder the conflict, the more glorious the triumph. What we obtain too cheap, we esteem too lightly: it is dearness only that gives every thing its value. Heaven knows how to put a proper price upon its goods; and it would be strange indeed if so celestial an article as freedom should not be highly rated.

Tyranny, like Hell, is not easily conquered. But a determined people have a good track record of beating tyranny, even when the odds seem hopeless. Even when one seems to be involved in a 'forever war'. Like America, during 1776 through 1780. Or Britain from June 1940 to May 1941. Tyranny never gives up. Keeps going indefinitely. Until, suddenly, it abruptly stops trying.

You believe in democracy? But not in this case because the odds are so clearly hopeless? Even though for a solid year now, the only one who have made significant gains are the Ukrainians?

True lovers of democracy applaud the efforts of others who fight tyranny. And will not withhold help because, 'It seems hopeless. This will go on indefinitely.' And have faith that democracy will prevail. And that tyranny will falter, and is never as strong as it seems.

Another push like the one the Ukrainians launched last September will see them reach the Sea of Azov. Isolating Crimea. And isolating areas lead to the doom of those areas. Think Stalingrad. Will that cause Russia to give up on it's clown show? I think it might. But I am confident that if Ukraine remains steadfast, if others continue to support it, Russia will give up. Because that is the pattern of history. History doesn't repeat itself but it does tend to rhyme.

You hate all the wars we have been involved in? So do I. But in how many of these wars were we supporting a people who wanted democracy. South Vietnam? Afghanistan? Iraq? No, no and no. But here, for the first time in my lifetime, we are supporting a people who support democracy. And we are willing to fight against the odds. This is not the time I want American to stop supporting an ally. This is the one time I want America to help another wage a war.

Give up the fight in Iraq? I am with you. But giving up on the fight in Ukraine? No.

But the way, you have taken a strong stand against Ukraine.

Question: Can you site posts you have made against the war (while it was being fought) in Afghanistan? Or Iraq? And made as many posts on those wars as you have on the one in Ukraine? Or is arguing against America being involved in wars just started in earnest with the war in Ukraine?

Online Jon Banks

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Re: Colors of Blue and Gold
« Reply #330 on: May 24, 2023, 04:23:16 PM »
So you are a fellow believer in democracy.

So you believe America's founding fathers were correct to fight against the British. To achieve democracy. Even though they were fighting a 'forever war'. A war they could not possibly win. A war the British Empire was bound to win, sooner or later. Or so it was said. But we both believe in democracy so much, we agree that it was best not for the founding fathers to give into their fears and to fight tyranny.

And I imagine, that like me, you believe Churchill was right to not negotiate with Hitler. Why negotiate with someone who keeps attacking others, makes agreements that this will be the last attack. And then attack again. Even though this was clearly a 'forever' war. A war, that at best, Britain could never win and would just drag on year after year with Germany. And at worst, a war that Britain must eventually lose, to the larger country's powerful U-boat fleet or aircraft, or both, which could isolate Britain from imports, starving it.

See, this is the reason why we're not aligned. I simply don't view this war the way you do. I compare it to other conflicts.

To me, the Russia-Ukraine war isn't comparable to our Revolution or World War II. Rather, this war is comparable to the Mexican-American war.

The Mexican-American war began as a fight over Texas, which was part of Mexico at the time when pro-American separatists in Texas began rebelling against the Mexican government. The US used the tragedy at the Alamo to justify invading Mexico and the outcome of the war was we gained Texas and other States that make up the American Southwest.

In Ukraine beginning in 2014, pro-Russian separatists rebelled against the Ukrainian government. Between 2014 and 2022, Ukraine was at war with their separatist rebels in eastern Ukraine. Russia used the plight of the seperatists and ethnic Russians in Ukraine to justify invading Ukraine and taking more of their territory.

And ultimately, this war may end with Russia controlling more Ukrainian territory than they did before 2022.

So that's the way I view this war. More about regional issues than "democracy" or "freedom".

Truthfully, Ukraine isn't a free country. Military age men cannot even legally leave Ukraine without permission. Opposition political parties have been banned. Churches that associate with Russia have been banned.

Before the war, Ukraine was one of the world's most corrupt countries.

So I take issue with the idea that Ukraine is "defending democracy" or the idealistic view of this war. I have more nuanced views of Ukraine and Russia. Neither country is perfect. Both are extremely flawed. Ukraine I think is Freer than Russia but not as democratic or pluralistic as I think a real democracy should be. 



Ukraine is not doomed. Russia has a long history of losing wars that, on paper, they should be able to crush easily. On paper, Russia should have won the Crimean war, with it's huge army. On paper, Russia should have won the war against Japan in 1904. On paper, Russia should have won the war against Poland at the end of World War I.


On paper, Russia should be able to win a war of attrition against Ukraine. Russia has three times more people than Ukraine and they're self-sufficient when it comes to military supplies.

When Ukraine needs more military ammo or equipment, they have to wait for other countries to supply them. When Russia needs more, they can just manufacture more.

So Russia has huge advantages over Ukraine and as you say, on paper, SHOULD be able to outlast Ukraine in this war.

If Russia is forced to withdraw from Ukraine, it will be due to their own internal problems, not due to Ukraine driving them out. It's just not realistic to assume that Ukraine alone can militarily defeat Russia.

So rather than keep escalating and sending more and more aid to Ukraine, I think we should keep the door open to peace talks if opportunities to get both sides to the negotiating table surface.


You believe in democracy? But not in this case because the odds are so clearly hopeless? Even though for a solid year now, the only one who have made significant gains are the Ukrainians?


I don't believe democracy or freedom come at the barrel of a gun. I have said multiple times here that wars typically coincide with a lack of individual freedom.

And even using our own example, only White male landowners were Free at the time of our Revolution. So can we really claim to have been a real democracy when our nation was founded?

Maybe over time, Ukraine will become more free and democratic but they're not really a democracy today and I don't believe this war is about democracy vs tyranny.


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Re: Colors of Blue and Gold
« Reply #330 on: May 24, 2023, 04:23:16 PM »


Online Jon Banks

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Re: Colors of Blue and Gold
« Reply #331 on: May 25, 2023, 12:10:07 PM »
    The US believes Ukraine is responsible for the drone attack on the Kremlin



Ukrainians Were Likely Behind Kremlin Drone Attack, U.S. Officials Say
Quote
U.S. officials said the drone attack on the Kremlin earlier this month was likely orchestrated by one of Ukraine’s special military or intelligence units, the latest in a series of covert actions against Russian targets that have unnerved the Biden administration.

U.S. intelligence agencies do not know which unit carried out the attack and it was unclear whether President Volodymyr Zelensky of Ukraine or his top officials were aware of the operation, though some officials believe Mr. Zelensky was not.

The agencies reached their preliminary assessment in part through intercepted communications in which Russian officials blamed Ukraine and other communications in which Ukrainian officials said they believed their country was responsible for the attack, in which two drones were flown on May 3 toward the Kremlin, causing little damage.

U.S. officials say their level of confidence that the Ukrainian government directly authorized the Kremlin drone attack is “low” but that is because intelligence agencies do not yet have specific evidence identifying which government officials, Ukrainian units or operatives were involved.

The attack appeared to be part of a series of operations that have made officials in the United States — Ukraine’s biggest supplier of military equipment — uncomfortable. The Biden administration is concerned about the risk that Russia will blame U.S. officials and retaliate by expanding the war beyond Ukraine.

American spy agencies see an emerging picture of a loose confederation of Ukrainian units able to conduct limited operations inside and outside Russia, either by using their own personnel or partners working under their direction. Some of these missions could have been conducted with little, if any, oversight from Mr. Zelensky, officials said.

In addition to the drone attack, U.S. officials say they believe the Ukrainians were responsible for the assassination of the daughter of a prominent Russian nationalist, the killing of a pro-Russian blogger and a number of attacks in Russian towns near the border with Ukraine, the most recent of which occurred Monday.


American officials similarly view the attack on the Nord Stream pipelines — which carried natural gas from Russia to Europe — as the work of pro-Ukrainian operatives whose ties to the Ukrainian government have yet to be determined.

http://redirect.viglink.com/?key=71fe2139a887ad501313cd8cce3053c5&subId=6966743&u=https%3A//www.nytimes.com/2023/05/24/us/politics/ukraine-kremlin-drone-attack.html




Either President Zelensky is unaware of what his intelligence operations guys are doing when he says "Ukraine isn't involved with the attacks inside Russia", or the US is giving him plausible deniability by claiming that he wasn't involved.


Online Richard Smith

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Re: Colors of Blue and Gold
« Reply #332 on: May 25, 2023, 02:19:53 PM »



There is only one thing left to ask for.  NATO ground troops made up of mostly Americans since "Europe" has checked on of the conflict.

Ain't gonna happen.



Remember when we were told that tanks were not going to be sent?  Then they were.  Remember when we were told missiles were not going to be sent?  Then they were.   Remember when Biden told us F16s were not going to be sent?  Then they were.  But don't worry.  Some guy from "Europe" knows that Ukraine Joe will not send in the troops.  Just trust him like Americans trusted LBJ in Vietnam.  American "advisors" are already in Ukraine.  Remember when "advisors" were sent to Vietnam?  Then they need some troops to provide logistical roles.  Then they needed some combat troops.  Then they need thousands, and then tens of thousands....we have all seen this movie before.  Again, maybe we get lucky here and Putin is forced to stand down.  But that decision is entirely with Russia.  The US and Ukraine cannot force a resolution. 

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Re: Colors of Blue and Gold
« Reply #332 on: May 25, 2023, 02:19:53 PM »


Offline Martin Weidmann

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Re: Colors of Blue and Gold
« Reply #333 on: May 25, 2023, 03:49:52 PM »
Remember when we were told that tanks were not going to be sent?  Then they were.  Remember when we were told missiles were not going to be sent?  Then they were.   Remember when Biden told us F16s were not going to be sent?  Then they were.  But don't worry.  Some guy from "Europe" knows that Ukraine Joe will not send in the troops.  Just trust him like Americans trusted LBJ in Vietnam.  American "advisors" are already in Ukraine.  Remember when "advisors" were sent to Vietnam?  Then they need some troops to provide logistical roles.  Then they needed some combat troops.  Then they need thousands, and then tens of thousands....we have all seen this movie before.  Again, maybe we get lucky here and Putin is forced to stand down.  But that decision is entirely with Russia.  The US and Ukraine cannot force a resolution.

Some guy from "Europe" knows that Ukraine Joe will not send in the troops.

No, some guy from Europe doesn't know that. He just understands that sending in US troops will be an escalation of the war that nobody wants.

But some guy hiding behind an alias on an internet forum actually thinks he knows exactly what will happen.   :D :D :D :D :D :D :D

Offline Rick Plant

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Re: Colors of Blue and Gold
« Reply #334 on: May 25, 2023, 09:50:30 PM »
Ukraine set to get F-16 fighter jets; Russian mercenaries pull out of Bakhmut
https://www.cnbc.com/2023/05/25/ukraine-war-live-updates-latest-news-on-russia-and-the-war-in-ukraine.html

Online Richard Smith

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Re: Colors of Blue and Gold
« Reply #335 on: May 26, 2023, 04:33:13 PM »
Some guy from "Europe" knows that Ukraine Joe will not send in the troops.

No, some guy from Europe doesn't know that. He just understands that sending in US troops will be an escalation of the war that nobody wants.

But some guy hiding behind an alias on an internet forum actually thinks he knows exactly what will happen.   :D :D :D :D :D :D :D

The escalation has already happened.  Old Joe said he would not send missiles, tanks, and F16s to Ukraine.  Then he did.  The creeping escalation is already well advanced.  The pattern is taken directly from Vietnam.  Do you think the war hawks will allow Ukraine to be overrun by Russia without pressuring Biden to send in NATO if this war goes on and on and Russia gets the upper hand? 

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Re: Colors of Blue and Gold
« Reply #335 on: May 26, 2023, 04:33:13 PM »