Colors of Blue and Gold

[Martin Weidmann]

The same way they are taught in Vietnam, Afghanistan, and Iraq to be grateful to America?   I'm sure they love us there since we did so much good.  The people of Ukraine who are dying and whose cities are being destroyed in a regional conflict in which most couldn't care less about whether they are governed by Russians or Ukranians, and many of whom are ethnic Russians, will curse Biden for centuries.

Always negative and boring. What a lovely person...

[Richard Smith]

It's not wasted money. Just like Hitler, Putin needs to be stopped. And sending weapons to Ukraine seems to be a very cost effective way to do it. Yes, it costs money to stop Putin. Just like it cost money to stop Hitler. But it needs to be done.

In the long run, Ukraine will be better off suffering the war damage, than living under the boot of Russia. There is no hope for them if that happens. And adding Ukraine to Russia will only give them more resources, more draftees, and make Russia an even bigger threat to Europe and the world.

And so far you have dodged my question.

Why did the recent reverses on the battlefield for Russia spur you to start complaining about our expenditures. You were pretty silent during the months of stalemate. Is it possible you are more concerned about Russia failing than our spending money?

Why would it be so unbearable for ethnic Russians to live under Russia?  Again, this is a regional conflict in which many of those who live in that area are RUSSIANS.  They have been fighting to return to Russia for years before this war.  And again with the Hitler comparison that Martin said "nobody" had ever made?  That is US propaganda.  Just like weapons of mass destruction.  If the Russians can't even overrun a few regions of Ukraine, they pose no Hitler-like threat to "Europe."  The "Europeans" apparently don't feel threatened since they have checked out of this conflict.  As with every other conflict in the last 70 years, the US is bearing the cost.  And just wait until Zelensky asks for ground troops.  That is coming after the 2024 election if Biden wins.  Bank on it.  Like the tanks, fighter jets, and missiles, the pattern of creeping escalation always ends at the same place with Americans doing the fighting.  Is it possible that fate intervenes and maybe Putin dies or falls out of power? Sure.  But that would be pure dumb luck and not the result of any US policy.   This war will go on and on and on for as long as the Russians want to fight it.  A losing scenario for the US that has been repeated over and over since Vietnam.  Biden has made the same mistake as LBJ.  He has gotten himself involved in a war with no clear way to end it.

[Jon Banks]

Growing up in Virginia, I was taught about the role the French played in the American Revolution.

America didn't return the favor to France when they had their revolution. At the time, the US wasn't an empire and there was no desire to get involved with other countries' problems. We need to get back to that because empires are difficult to maintain. Overextending themselves by getting involved with too many foreign conflicts usually leads to the decline of empires...

[Rick Plant]

Zelensky salutes ‘powerful support’ from allies at Moldova summit – as he increases pressure over jets
Ukrainian president says it is vitally important to overturn Russian air supremacy with F-16s and Patriot missile defences
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/ukraine-war-russia-zelensky-moldova-jets-b2349911.html

[Joe Elliott]

The same way they are taught in Vietnam, Afghanistan, and Iraq to be grateful to America?   I'm sure they love us there since we did so much good.  The people of Ukraine who are dying and whose cities are being destroyed in a regional conflict in which most couldn't care less about whether they are governed by Russians or Ukranians, and many of whom are ethnic Russians, will curse Biden for centuries.

We weren't defending a democracy in Vietnam, nor Afghanistan, nor Iraq. For the first time in my life, we are supporting a democracy. So this is that one time, the one time, I don't want to withhold our support.

The Ukrainians don't support the war? Then why did so many escort their families over the border, when the war started, then turned around and returned to fight for Ukraine. Why is a much smaller country than Russia, able to get as many men to join the fight as Russia gets. And Russia is forced to use convicts and mercenaries to get somewhere near equal numbers.

Back in the 1990's, every province of Ukraine was given a chance to vote to stay in Russia or join Ukraine. And every province, including Crimea, voted to join Ukraine. Every one/

Most Ukrainian Russian speakers don't want to join Russia. Some do, but most don't. And those who do are free to move to Russia after the war if they want to. So everyone can be accomendated. Something that won't happen if Russia gets it's way, take over all of Ukraine. If it can't accomplish this year, or this decade, it will take what it can get now and go get the rest later.

When western reporters interview Russia speaking Ukrainians and refer to them as "Russian Ukrainians", the Ukrainians usually interrupt them, and inform them that they are not "Russian Ukrainians" but are "Ukrainians who speak Russian". And are "Ukrainians who support Ukraine and do not wish to go back to being Russians".

Sure, some Russian speaking Ukrainians do want Russia to win. But most do not. And yet, you pretend that all Russian speaking Ukrainians want Russia to win.

I marginally supported the war against Afghanistan. Because Afghanistan used and sheltered those who attacked us. And I have always been against the war in Iraq. And would support leaving Iraq tomorrow, assuming this doesn't endanger the Democrats in the 2024 elections. But the one war I want to see supported is the one in Ukraine. Let's not make the one war we drop out of the one that supports a democracy.

[Jon Banks]

We weren't defending a democracy in Vietnam, nor Afghanistan, nor Iraq. For the first time in my life, we are supporting a democracy. So this is that one time, the one time, I don't want to withhold our support.

Was the US “supporting” Ukraine’s democracy when we overthrew their President in February 2014? He was democratically elected but overthrown by the transitional government which was handpicked by US diplomats.

To the rest of the world, “democracy promotion” by the US usually means the CIA and their affiliated organizations meddling in the elections of other democracies. Including democratic countries like Canada and Brazil.

As for Ukraine, they’re barely a democracy today. Zelensky has outlawed opposition parties, shut down churches, jailed political opponents, and jailed pretty much anyone in Ukraine who is suspected of being a traitor.

So the Ukraine you speak of is an aspirational ideal maybe but not their current reality or even the reality of Ukraine before Putin’s invasion.

Our involvement with Ukraine, which began over a decade ago if not earlier, is about post-Cold War politics between the US and Russia, not democracy. This conflict is about great power politics in the 21st century.

[Rick Plant]

Ukraine war: Teens used to report Russian propaganda
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-65675102

[Richard Smith]

We weren't defending a democracy in Vietnam, nor Afghanistan, nor Iraq. For the first time in my life, we are supporting a democracy. So this is that one time, the one time, I don't want to withhold our support.

The Ukrainians don't support the war? Then why did so many escort their families over the border, when the war started, then turned around and returned to fight for Ukraine. Why is a much smaller country than Russia, able to get as many men to join the fight as Russia gets. And Russia is forced to use convicts and mercenaries to get somewhere near equal numbers.

Back in the 1990's, every province of Ukraine was given a chance to vote to stay in Russia or join Ukraine. And every province, including Crimea, voted to join Ukraine. Every one/

Most Ukrainian Russian speakers don't want to join Russia. Some do, but most don't. And those who do are free to move to Russia after the war if they want to. So everyone can be accomendated. Something that won't happen if Russia gets it's way, take over all of Ukraine. If it can't accomplish this year, or this decade, it will take what it can get now and go get the rest later.

When western reporters interview Russia speaking Ukrainians and refer to them as "Russian Ukrainians", the Ukrainians usually interrupt them, and inform them that they are not "Russian Ukrainians" but are "Ukrainians who speak Russian". And are "Ukrainians who support Ukraine and do not wish to go back to being Russians".

Sure, some Russian speaking Ukrainians do want Russia to win. But most do not. And yet, you pretend that all Russian speaking Ukrainians want Russia to win.

I marginally supported the war against Afghanistan. Because Afghanistan used and sheltered those who attacked us. And I have always been against the war in Iraq. And would support leaving Iraq tomorrow, assuming this doesn't endanger the Democrats in the 2024 elections. But the one war I want to see supported is the one in Ukraine. Let's not make the one war we drop out of the one that supports a democracy.

It's incorrect to claim we were not supporting "democracy" in places like Vietnam, Afghanistan and Iraq. That was the whole narrative.  We were saving Vietnam from the Commies.  We were liberating Afghanistan and Iraq from dictators and terrorists.   Remember all the propaganda when Afghans voted and had those blue marks on their fingers?  No one is "pretending" that all Russian speaking Ukranians want Russia to win.  Many likely prefer it to the total destruction of their homes and deaths of their families.  These wars are pointless and costly.  Nothing good ever comes of it.  There is no way for the US to force an end.  It will go on for as long as the Russians wish to continue it.