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Author Topic: Brown/Weidmann, Mini-Debate?  (Read 50164 times)

Offline John Iacoletti

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Re: Brown/Weidmann, Mini-Debate?
« Reply #144 on: May 06, 2022, 06:58:25 PM »
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She said she "got her bus" at 1:15, not "got to the bus stop".

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Re: Brown/Weidmann, Mini-Debate?
« Reply #144 on: May 06, 2022, 06:58:25 PM »


Offline Martin Weidmann

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Re: Brown/Weidmann, Mini-Debate?
« Reply #145 on: May 07, 2022, 12:27:20 AM »

Evidence please that 602 was “trying to contact the dispatcher to tell him they were en route to the hospital” when he just said “602” and the dispatcher didn’t respond.

“Dale Myers thinks so” is not evidence.



As for a response to John Iacoletti, I'm not ignoring it.  I am trying to find the source.  Some of this stuff I have known for years and have no idea where I first learned it.


Still waiting for you to find the source.....

Btw, if you have known "this stuff" for years, why did you say this, in 2020;


Ted Callaway testified that after hearing the five gun shots, he ran out to the sidewalk on Patton.  This was a little over a half block south of the shooting scene.  Callaway saw a man (who he later identified as Oswald) cutting across Patton as he (Oswald) made his way south on Patton (towards Callaway's position).  Callaway hollered out to the man  as the man continued south on Patton past Callaway's position.  Callaway testified that the man was running and holding a gun.  Callaway saw the man head west on Jefferson (the same direction as the theater).

Once the man turned west onto Jefferson, Callaway ran a "good hard run" up to the corner of Tenth and Patton.  Callaway, noticing the stopped patrol car, went to the car and saw the officer (Tippit) lying dead in the street.  Callaway said the first thing he did was to grab the police car radio and report the shooting.  He said he didn't know if anyone had reported it yet, so he decided to report it himself.

To recap, Callaway hears the shots.  Runs to the sidewalk.  Sees the gunman run south on Patton the entire block from Tenth to Jefferson.  Runs the two-thirds of a block up to the shooting scene.  Goes over to the police car and the first thing he does is grab the radio and report the shooting to the police dispatcher.

How much time do you believe passed from the time Callaway heard the shots to the time he reported the shooting on the police radio?

« Last Edit: May 07, 2022, 12:29:48 AM by Martin Weidmann »

Offline Rick Plant

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Re: Brown/Weidmann, Mini-Debate?
« Reply #146 on: May 07, 2022, 01:00:47 AM »
Not sure why anybody would put the bus time at 1:22 or even after 1:15.

Markham stated she left home about 6 or 7 minutes after 1. Although, she wasn't quite exactly sure. 

Ball asked her what time she usually gets to her bus. Markham replied 1:15. 

Ball then asked her if it was before 1:15. Markham replied "yes it was".

So, according to Markham she got her bus before 1:15.   
« Last Edit: May 07, 2022, 02:39:31 AM by Rick Plant »

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Re: Brown/Weidmann, Mini-Debate?
« Reply #146 on: May 07, 2022, 01:00:47 AM »


Online Mitch Todd

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Re: Brown/Weidmann, Mini-Debate?
« Reply #147 on: May 07, 2022, 02:48:25 AM »
That turns out to be an invalid assumption, given that the supervisor of the dispatchers, James Bowles, is on record saying that the clocks were not precise, were not regularly calibrated or synchronized, and the dispatcher didn’t always say what was on the clock at the time of the announcement.

https://www.jfk-online.com/bowles1.html#ref
Specifically, what in Bowles missive do you think invalidates the analysis?

Offline Martin Weidmann

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Re: Brown/Weidmann, Mini-Debate?
« Reply #148 on: May 07, 2022, 03:21:09 AM »
Specifically, what in Bowles missive do you think invalidates the analysis?

The analysis was fine as long as you kept it neutral, starting with Bowley's call at 0:00:00.

As soon as you related the timeline to the first timestamp either being at 1:19:00 or 1:19:59 you invalidated the analysis and conclusions simply because you completely ignored everything Bowles told the HSCA about time calls not being made correctly, dispatcher's clocks not matching, by as much as two minutes, the master clock in the town hall, which in turn did not match real time.

To assume that the timestamps were 100% correct after all, when the likelyhood of that being the case is nearly non existent, given what Bowles said, invalidates the conclusion that Callaway's call happened at 1:20:06PM +/- 10 seconds.



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Re: Brown/Weidmann, Mini-Debate?
« Reply #148 on: May 07, 2022, 03:21:09 AM »


Online Mitch Todd

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Re: Brown/Weidmann, Mini-Debate?
« Reply #149 on: May 07, 2022, 04:26:04 AM »
The analysis was fine as long as you kept it neutral, starting with Bowley's call at 0:00:00.

As soon as you related the timeline to the first timestamp either being at 1:19:00 or 1:19:59 you invalidated the analysis and conclusions simply because you completely ignored everything Bowles told the HSCA about time calls not being made correctly, dispatcher's clocks not matching, by as much as two minutes, the master clock in the town hall, which in turn did not match real time.

To assume that the timestamps were 100% correct after all, when the likelyhood of that being the case is nearly non existent, given what Bowles said, invalidates the conclusion that Callaway's call happened at 1:20:06PM +/- 10 seconds.
Bowles didn't tell the HSCA anything. His FUDdly screed was written well after the HSCA had closed up shop.  I swear I brought this up before, and you'd acknowledged it.

Bowles does not say that the dispatcher's clocks could differ by two minutes. He said that the dispatcher clocks were kept to within a minute of each other. Francis Cason, one of the phone operators in the dispatch center, also testified that the clocks were kept to within a minute of each other.  Bowles did say that the various clocks in the dispatch center could vary by as much as two minutes from city hall time, but that doesn't invalidate what he as Cason said. And, since I'm just talking about channel one time, the City Hall clock (and what you call "real time") doesn't even begin to come into play.

You'll have to try again.



Offline Martin Weidmann

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Re: Brown/Weidmann, Mini-Debate?
« Reply #150 on: May 07, 2022, 10:07:21 AM »
Bowles does not say that the dispatcher's clocks could differ by two minutes.

Bowles;
A master clock on the telephone room wall was connected to the City Hall system. This clock reported "official" time. Within the dispatcher's office there were numerous other time giving and time recording devices, both in the telephone room and in the radio room. Telephone operators and radio operators were furnished "Simplex" clocks. Because the hands often worked loose, they indicated the incorrect time. However, their purpose was to stamp the time, day and date on incoming calls. While they were reliable at this, they were not synchronized as stated in the Committee report. Therefore, it was not uncommon for the time stamped on calls to be a minute to two ahead or behind the "official" time shown on the master clock.

He said that the dispatcher clocks were kept to within a minute of each other.

Misrepresent much?

Bowles;
Accordingly, at "exactly" 10:10, various clocks could be stamping from 10:08 to 10:12, for example. When clocks were as much as a minute or so out of synchronization it was normal procedure to make the needed adjustments. During busy periods this was not readily done.

In addition to the times stamped on calls by telephone operators, the radio operators stamped the "time" as calls were dispatched, and the "time" that officers completed an assignment and returned to service. Radio operators were also furnished with 12-hour digital clocks to facilitate their time references when they were not using call sheets containing stamped time. These digital clocks were not synchronized with any time standard. Therefore, the time "actual" and time "broadcast" could easily be a minute or so apart.

Next, consideration should be given to the methods of individual radio operators. A given operator at a given time might broadcast "time" a little early in one event then a little late the next. Accordingly, a call initiated at, say, 10:10 might be stamped at 10:13 by the dispatcher, only to have intervening radio traffic delay his broadcast. He might go ahead and announce the dispatch time as 10:13 and the digital clock then showed 10:14. Time intervals of less than one minute were never used.

And, since I'm just talking about channel one time, the City Hall clock (and what you call "real time") doesn't even begin to come into play.

You wish, it would only make your speculation "analysis" even more flawed and less valid.

You seem to have missed or ignored the bottom line completely. With dispatcher's clocks out of sychronization, not matching the "official time" of the master clock, which in turn did not match real time and with the two dispatchers not always calling out the correct time, the likelyhood of a time stamp call on the audio recording being 100% correct is minimal. Yet your entire "analysis" is rather foolishly completely based on that time stamp being 100% correct.

There is no way to connect "police time" with "real time." - J.C. Bowles

It seems you are the one who needs to try again.
« Last Edit: May 07, 2022, 11:05:16 PM by Martin Weidmann »

Offline John Iacoletti

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Re: Brown/Weidmann, Mini-Debate?
« Reply #151 on: May 08, 2022, 03:17:03 PM »
By the way, just because it was “normal procedure” to reset the clocks when they were “a minute or two” apart doesn’t mean that the maximum they could ever be off is two minutes.

And I have never seen any compelling reason to assume that the existing recordings are a continuous recording during the time period in question.

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Re: Brown/Weidmann, Mini-Debate?
« Reply #151 on: May 08, 2022, 03:17:03 PM »