Brown/Weidmann, Mini-Debate?

[John Iacoletti]

Just a few reasons the sham lineups were unfair and biased and hence utterly unreliable:

- The fillers were not chosen to resemble the witnesses' descriptions of the perpetrator
- There were only 3 fillers for the lineups and no fillers for the photo identifications
- The fillers were not dressed like Oswald
- The fillers were not dressed to match witnesses' descriptions of the perpetrator
- The person administering the lineup knew which person in the lineup was the suspect
- The witnesses did not view the lineups separately
- Some witnesses knew which man was the suspect before they attended the lineup
- Not all of the men were handcuffed together for the first lineup
- Witnesses were influenced by the physical appearances of both Oswald and the fillers
- Witnesses were influenced by Oswald's complaints about the fairness of the lineups
- Witnesses were intimidated or pressured by the authorities
- Witnesses were asked to sign affidavits which would include who they picked in the lineup before actually viewing the lineup
- The criminal justice system in Dallas County had a history of railroading suspects

[Martin Weidmann]

Now that the trolls have been dealt with, let's see if we can get the conversation between Bill Brown and myself back on track;

Since Bill still hasn't been able to tell us what his source is for the claim that the ambulance left the scene when Callaway was on the radio, let's just have a look at some other things he said;

All one has to do is listen to the police tapes and it is painfully obvious that Butler reported "602" as they were taking off for Methodist. Therefore the assumption (if indeed it was an assumption) that Butler was attempting to report that they were on their way to the hospital is an assumption based on what the evidence tells us.

I'm only telling you what the police tapes tell us.  The tapes tell us that Callaway made his report to the police dispatcher AFTER the body was loaded and the ambulance was pulling away from the scene.

As we now have a verbatim second by second record of what the audio recording is actually saying;

Ok, here's the timeline again, based on the actual audio recording;

57:28:67 Bowley starts his call
58:14:42 Bowley ends his call (being told to stay of the radio)

58:24:35 Ambulance 602 calls Code 5 (en route)
58:41:85 Ambulance 602 calls Code 6 (for wrong location at Jefferson)
58:48:40 Ambulance 602 asks dispatcher for address on Jefferson - Dispatcher replies: 501 Tenth Street
59:02:85 Ambulance 602 calls Code 6 (for arrival at Tippit scene)

59:30:99 Ambulance 602 tries to get attention of the dispatcher by calling "602"

59:40:98 Callaway starts his call

59:42:85 Ambulance 602 tries again to get the attention of the dispatcher by calling "602"

We know for a fact that Callaway had not yet arrived at the scene when Bowley finished his call. We also know that he arrived on the scene shortly before the ambulance did. This means that Callaway must have arrived at the scene between 58:14:42 and 59:02:85.

We also know that Callaway said that when he arrived at the scene, he first went to check on the victim before he went to the police car to use the radio. He made his call at 59:40:98, which is roughly 38 seconds after the Code 6 call by the ambulance, at 59:02:85.

Although this can not be said with 100% certainty, it's highly likely that when Butler made the Code 6 call, he was still driving the ambulance towards the location. The alternative would be that he first stopped the ambulance and then made the Code 6, but that would only mean a loss of possibly valuable seconds.

So, if Butler did indeed make his Code 6 call at 59:02:85, it would have taken him - I assume - another 10 to 15 seconds to stop the car, near the victim, and get out of the ambulance.

Butler told George and Patricia Nash that he went to check on the victim. When she saw that it was a police officer he returned to the ambulance to let the dispatcher know that the victim was a police officer. In his book, Myers, accepts this actually happened and so did you earlier in this thread. The audio timeline shows this call (the first unanswered "602") took place at 59:30:99, so roughly 28 seconds after the Code 6 call.

Only 10 seconds later, at 59:40:98, Callaway makes his radio call.

All this justifies the question when exactly was there time for Callaway (and Bowley) to help load Tippit into the ambulance before Callaway made his call?

If your assertion is not erroneous, you should be able to answer this question, right?

should Bill not at least be able to pin point when exactly there was time for Callaway to help Tippit into the ambulance before he made his call? If it is really as obvious as Bill claims it is, what's holding him back to prove me wrong?

[Bill Brown]

Because there may be examples in history of someone being convicted based upon false witness identification does not mean that the witness identifications in this case are suspect.

[Martin Weidmann]

Instead of posting a gif, perhaps you can point out where the audio recording is "obviously telling us" that the ambulance left when Callaway was making his call?

C'mon, Bill... Let's resolve this and then we can move on to another topic, as you wanted.

[Bill Brown]

In addition, there was other evidence that links Oswald to the crime such as his possession of the murder weapon, same two brands of ammo used to kill Tippit...

Wrong. The bullets allegedly found in Oswald’s pocket hours after his arrest were all one brand.

Richard Smith didn't say anything about the bullets removed from Oswald's pants pocket.

The revolver taken from Oswald contained two brands of bullets (Winchester-Westerns and Remington-Peters) and these were the same two brands of shell casings found at the Tippit shooting scene.

I'm positive this is the point Richard was making and he's correct.

Now cue the tired "Oswald's revolver LOL" comment.

[Bill Brown]

Instead of posting a gif, perhaps you can point out where the audio recording is "obviously telling us" that the ambulance left when Callaway was making his call?

C'mon, Bill... Let's resolve this and then we can move on to another topic, as you wanted.

I've made my case for Callaway helping to load the body into the ambulance BEFORE making the call to the police dispatcher.  I'm satisfied with the case I have made.  Others can do with it what they wish.

There's only so much either of us can say about it.

If you want to discuss another topic, we can do that.

[Bill Chapman]

At least one filler looked the part of Oswald who had that kind of dishevelled, overwrought-loser look about him
And where's the jacket Oswald was seen wearing @Tippit?

[Martin Weidmann]

I've made my case for Callaway helping to load the body into the ambulance BEFORE making the call to the police dispatcher.  I'm satisfied with the case I have made.  Others can do with it what they wish.

There's only so much either of us can say about it.

If you want to discuss another topic, we can do that.

I'll accept that as an admission that you can not show where the audio recording "obviously" tells us that the ambulance was leaving when Callaway was making his call. If you could, you would have pointed it out and, in doing so, proved me wrong.

The reason for that is of course indeed obvious; there was no time for Callaway to help load Tippit into the ambulance before he made his call. It didn't happen.

If you want to discuss another topic, we can do that.

After this disappointing reply, I have to say I've lost interest. Against my better judgement, I accepted your invitation to debate this topic here, because in my mind there is always a possibility that my opinion is wrong and, just maybe, you would present something that would make me change my opinion. From our discussion in this thread it has, sadly, become obvious that you never even considered the possibility that you could be wrong, when in fact, as is painfully clear, you are.

It is my humble opinion that no matter how much I think I know about a certain topic, there's always a possibility that somebody else knows more. I would love to discuss all details of this case with an LN who actually has an open mind as that would be beneficial to further my, and perhaps his, knowledge. Unfortunately, you are not that LN.