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Author Topic: Brown/Weidmann, Mini-Debate?  (Read 50133 times)

Offline Martin Weidmann

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Re: Brown/Weidmann, Mini-Debate?
« Reply #272 on: May 23, 2022, 02:25:50 AM »
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Text book response by one who has been embarrassed.  You're hateful and a complete joke.

That's all you've got? It might be a text book (your book?) response, but that doesn't make it untrue.

You've been on the war path ever since you went down in flames in the debate. It's comical.
« Last Edit: May 23, 2022, 02:35:59 AM by Martin Weidmann »

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Re: Brown/Weidmann, Mini-Debate?
« Reply #272 on: May 23, 2022, 02:25:50 AM »


Offline Bill Brown

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Re: Brown/Weidmann, Mini-Debate?
« Reply #273 on: May 23, 2022, 06:31:23 AM »
That's all you've got? It might be a text book (your book?) response, but that doesn't make it untrue.

You've been on the war path ever since you went down in flames in the debate. It's comical.

Went down in flames?  It's like you're eight years old.

Regarding Callaway, your argument relies on the police tapes, which you dispute as even being accurate.  That's laughable.

As far as Bowles, Mitch Todd has obviously embarrassed you; I mean just look at your responses since the penny finally dropped.

As for your general hatefulness, I bet you're a real hit during the holidays.
« Last Edit: June 24, 2022, 05:23:12 AM by Bill Brown »

Offline Martin Weidmann

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Re: Brown/Weidmann, Mini-Debate?
« Reply #274 on: May 23, 2022, 11:53:23 AM »
Went down in flames?  It's like you're eight years old.

Regarding Callaway, your argument relies on the police tapes, which you dispute as even being accurate.  That's laughable.

As far as Bowles, Mitch Todd has obviously embarrassed you; I mean just look at your responses since the penny finally dropped.

As for your general hatefulness, I bed you're a real hit during the holidays.

So much frustration..... Will you start throwing things around next?

You bed?



Regarding Callaway, your argument relies on the police tapes, which you dispute as even being accurate.

Another misrepresentation. One of many by now. I don't dispute the sequence of events as can be heard on the police recordings, but I do have an issue with the time calls by the dispatchers to the extent that they do not reflect real time. Which, btw, is exactly what Bowles said.

And as far as relying on the police tapes goes; you claimed that it was obvious (there is that word again) that the second "602" call by Butler was to inform the dispatcher that he was leaving the scene. Despite the fact that Butler told George and Patricia Nass a different story in 1964, you nevertheless claimed you had a source that would confirm your claim. It's been nearly a month now, and you still haven't presented that information. One can only wonder why......

And then, of course, there is the time line of the radio recording itself, which clearly shows that Callaway simply had no time to help Tippit into the ambulance before making his radio call. You ran from that one as fast as you could. Why was that again, Bill?


As far as Bowles, Mitch Todd has obviously embarrassed you

You use the word "obvious" way to often and incorrectly!

How in the world would Todd be able to embarrass me, when all he talks about is the time difference between channel 1 and 2 and the Callaway sequence was all on channel 1?

Todd even admits that he has "never argued, claimed, or impled that any of the DPD dispatcher clock were running on standard time" and that for him "standard time is the time standard standardized by the National Beureau of Standards. At least, that's the standard answer. Put another way, it is the official US time standard as derived from UT1..".
« Last Edit: May 23, 2022, 02:24:24 PM by Martin Weidmann »

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Re: Brown/Weidmann, Mini-Debate?
« Reply #274 on: May 23, 2022, 11:53:23 AM »


Offline John Iacoletti

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Re: Brown/Weidmann, Mini-Debate?
« Reply #275 on: May 23, 2022, 03:04:39 PM »
Bowles himself said that the DPDs standard was to keep the dispatcher clocks to within a minute. Francis Cason said the same thing. I've quoted both saying it.

And as I pointed out, you misrepresented Cason. She was talking about the time clocks in the telephone dispatcher’s office. And as both Martin and I pointed out, Bowles said “therefore, it was not uncommon for the time stamped on calls to be a minute to two ahead or behind the ‘official’ time shown on the master clock. Accordingly, at ‘exactly’ 10:10, various clocks could be stamping from 10:08 to 10:12, for example. When clocks were as much as a minute or so out of synchronization it was normal procedure to make the needed adjustments. During busy periods this was not readily done.

11/22/63 was nothing if not a “busy period”. It’s also important to note that Bowles never said the 2 radio dispatcher clocks were ever synced with each other, just with the “master clock” when it was noticed that one was out of sync.

In addition to these things, Bowles also said that the radio dispatchers didn’t always announce the same time that was currently being displayed on the clock.

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This might also be a good time to point out that a fraction (ie, the percentage of the time that a clock goes out of spec)

You don’t know what this percentage was.

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multiplied by a fraction (the percentage of the time when a clock is out of spec that the dispatch office is too busy to intervene at normal speed) is an even smaller fraction.

You don’t know what this percentage was either. And it doesn’t matter anyway. All that matters is how busy they were that day.

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That's not much to bet on.

It’s more than enough to state, as Bowles did, that you cannot rely on the accuracy of the announced times.

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It can be determined that the clocks used by the channel one and channel two radio operators were running within one minute of each other. This can be done by inspecting the simulcasts broadcast shortly after the assassination, and comparting the timestamps on those transmissions to the timestamps on the surrounding radio traffic.

There you have it. Dan O’Meara was asking who was advocating this “simulcast” idea.

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This can also be done by looking the instances of crosstalk between channel two and channel one during the open mic interval. BBN (and others) used regression analysis of the time announcements on both channels to show the same thing. 

It’s time to get specific here. What crosstalk tells you what both radio dispatcher clocks were reading at any particular moment in time? What crosstalk is even timestamped? What “regression analysis” (whatever that means) tells you what both radio dispatcher clocks were reading at any particular moment in time?

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Further, the '12:30 KKB364' announcement between Curry's "approaching triple underpass" and "Go to the hospital" transmissions align with the Hertz clock in the McIntire photo as well as the observed time noted by various members of the White House party indicate that channel two is within one minute of standard time.

Not unless you can show that the Hertz clock was aligned with standard time.

Offline Martin Weidmann

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Re: Brown/Weidmann, Mini-Debate?
« Reply #276 on: May 24, 2022, 01:09:33 AM »
Let's see if there is anybody who can help Bill Brown to pinpoint the moment when Callaway had time to help load Tippit into the ambulance before making his radio call, as Bill claims he did.

When I asked Bill this question he refused to answer and said he had made his case, so others can now make up their mind. That made me curious and wanting to go over this again, to see if there is anybody who agrees with Bill and can explain, in detail, why....

On page 11 of this thread, Bill posted this YouTube video;


It provides the audio recordings of the DPD radio over a much longer period of time than the one Bill and I were discussing, so I provided a timeline (obtained by placing the mp3 of the YouTube recording in a software program called Wavelab), which looked like this;

The key times are:

57:28:67 Bowley starts his call
58:14:42 Bowley ends his call (being told to stay of the radio)

58:24:35 Ambulance 602 calls Code 5 (en route)
58:41:85 Ambulance 602 calls Code 6 (for wrong location at Jefferson)
58:48:40 Ambulance 602 asks dispatcher for address on Jefferson - Dispatcher replies: 501 Tenth Street
59:02:85 Ambulance 602 calls Code 6 (for arrival at Tippit scene)

59:30:99 Ambulance 602 tries to get attention of the dispatcher by calling "602"

59:40:98 Callaway starts his call

59:42:85 Ambulance 602 tries again to get the attention of the dispatcher by calling "602"

We know for a fact that Callaway had not yet arrived at the scene when Bowley finished his call. We also know that he arrived on the scene shortly before the ambulance did. This means that Callaway must have arrived at the scene between 58:14:42 and 59:02:85.

We also know that Callaway said that when he arrived at the scene, he first went to check on the victim before he went to the police car to use the radio. He made his call at 59:40:98, which is roughly 38 seconds after the Code 6 call by the ambulance, at 59:02:85.

Although this can not be said with 100% certainty, it's highly likely that when Butler made the Code 6 call, he was still driving the ambulance towards the location. The alternative would be that he first stopped the ambulance and then made the Code 6, but that would only mean a loss of possibly valuable seconds.

So, if Butler did indeed make his Code 6 call at 59:02:85, it would have taken him - I assume - another 10 to 15 seconds to stop the car, near the victim, and get out of the ambulance.

Butler told George and Patricia Nash that he went to check on the victim. When he saw that it was a police officer he returned to the ambulance to let the dispatcher know that the victim was a police officer. In his book, Myers, accepts this actually happened and so did Bill earlier in this thread. The audio timeline shows this call (the first unanswered "602") took place at 59:30:99, so roughly 28 seconds after the Code 6 call.

Only 10 seconds later, at 59:40:98, Callaway makes his radio call, during which Butler made his second "602" call.

So, the question is; when exactly did Callaway have the oppertunity to help load Tippit into the ambulance, during the 38 seconds that elapsed between the ambulance's code 6 call at 59:02:85 and Callaway's call at 59:40:98?

When considering if there was a window of opportunity, it should be taken in consideration that;

(1) the arrival call for the ambulance, at 59:02:85, was probably made when the ambulance was still driving. Parking it near to the victim could easily have taken 10 seconds or so, and

(2) when Callaway made his call, he first had to get into the car, which also reduced the window of opportunity by, at least, several seconds.

I really would appreciate feedback, especially from LNs who can be relied upon to support Bill Brown, about exactly when they think Callaway had the opportunity to help load Tippit into the ambulance before he made his call.


« Last Edit: May 24, 2022, 01:37:56 AM by Martin Weidmann »

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Re: Brown/Weidmann, Mini-Debate?
« Reply #276 on: May 24, 2022, 01:09:33 AM »


Offline John Iacoletti

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Re: Brown/Weidmann, Mini-Debate?
« Reply #277 on: May 24, 2022, 10:55:46 PM »
I would also like to know the provenance of the recording on the YouTube video.

Offline Bill Brown

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Re: Brown/Weidmann, Mini-Debate?
« Reply #278 on: May 25, 2022, 08:04:02 AM »
The police tapes obviously don't mention the body being loaded into the ambulance, but the tapes do tell us when the ambulance was leaving the scene en route to Methodist Hospital.  The tapes tell us that the ambulance was leaving the scene as Callaway was making his report on the squad car radio.

602 (ambulance):   602.       
Dispatcher:   85.       
85 (Ptm. R.W. Walker):   85.       
Dispatcher:   Suspect running west on Jefferson from the location.       
85 (Ptm. R.W. Walker):   10-4.       
Dispatcher:   No physical description.       
Citizen (Callaway):   Hello, hello, hello.       
602 (ambulance):   602.       
Citizen (Callaway):   Pardon, from out here on Tenth Street, 500 block. This officer just shot. I think he's dead.
Dispatcher:   10-4. We have that information. The citizen using the radio: Remain off the radio now.

That "602" was Butler attempting to let dispatch know that they were leaving the scene en route to the hospital.  However, he could not get through because Callaway is on the squad car radio reporting the incident (as the ambulance is speeding off).

After arriving on the scene in the ambulance, Butler and Kinsley rolled Tippit's body over (he was lying on his stomach) in order to place Tippit onto the stretcher..  Callaway noticed Tippit's service revolver lying on the street (it was underneath the body).  Callaway picked up the revolver and placed it on the hood of the patrol car and then helped Bowley, Butler and Kinsley load Tippit's body into the ambulance.

T.F. Bowley stated in his affidavit that once Tippit's body was loaded into the ambulance, he saw the service revolver lying on the hood of the patrol car (having been placed there moments earlier by Callaway).  Bowley picked up the revolver off of the hood and placed on the front seat of the patrol car.

"When the ambulance left, I took the gun and put it inside the squad car." -- T.F. Bowley (12/2/63 affidavit)

After making his report to the police dispatcher on the squad car radio, Callaway grabbed the service revolver from the front seat and proceeded to seek others to help him go off in search for the killer.

More evidence that Callaway helped load the body into the ambulance BEFORE he got on the police radio to report the shooting...

"And then I got out of the cab and run down there; the ambulance had
already arrived by the time I got there, and they were in the process
of picking the man up, and they had done had him, was putting him on
the stretcher when I got there, and they put him in the ambulance and
took him away, and there was someone that got on the radio at that
time and they told him he was going to report it, so they told him to
get off the air, that it had already been reported, and he picks up
the officer's pistol that was laying on the ground, apparently fell
out of his holster when he fell, and says, "Come on, let's go see if
we can find him."
-- WILLIAM SCOGGINS

The "someone that got on the radio" was Callaway and the "at that
time"
was once the ambulance "took him away".

Domingo Benavides said that Callaway got on the patrol car radio to report the shooting and the "officer" at the other end (the dispatcher) told Callaway that they already had that information and to stay off the air.  Benavides then said that Callaway grabbed the service revolver and said to Benavides that they should go chase the killer.  Benavides said he declined and added that Callaway then went over to the cab driver (Scoggins).

Callaway said to Scoggins "Let's get the son of a As I was walking a' alane, I heard twa corbies makin' a mane. The tane untae the tither did say, Whaur sail we gang and dine the day, O. Whaur sail we gang and dine the day?  It's in ahint yon auld fail dyke I wot there lies a new slain knight; And naebody kens that he lies there But his hawk and his hound, and his lady fair, O. But his hawk and his hound, and his lady fair.  His hound is to the hunting gane His hawk to fetch the wild-fowl hame, His lady ta'en anither mate, So we may mak' our dinner swate, O. So we may mak' our dinner swate.  Ye'll sit on his white hause-bane, And I'll pike oot his bonny blue e'en Wi' ae lock o' his gowden hair We'll theek oor nest when it grows bare, O. We'll theek oor nest when it grows bare.  There's mony a ane for him maks mane But nane sail ken whaur he is gane O'er his white banes when they are bare The wind sail blaw for evermair, O. The wind sail blaw for evermair.'".  Benavides said nothing about Callaway helping to load the body into the ambulance before going over to Scoggins with the revolver (because this had already been done earlier and the ambulance was gone).

Offline Dan O'meara

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Re: Brown/Weidmann, Mini-Debate?
« Reply #279 on: May 25, 2022, 09:18:22 AM »
The police tapes obviously don't mention the body being loaded into the ambulance, but the tapes do tell us when the ambulance was leaving the scene en route to Methodist Hospital.  The tapes tell us that the ambulance was leaving the scene as Callaway was making his report on the squad car radio.

602 (ambulance):   602.       
Dispatcher:   85.       
85 (Ptm. R.W. Walker):   85.       
Dispatcher:   Suspect running west on Jefferson from the location.       
85 (Ptm. R.W. Walker):   10-4.       
Dispatcher:   No physical description.       
Citizen (Callaway):   Hello, hello, hello.       
602 (ambulance):   602.       
Citizen (Callaway):   Pardon, from out here on Tenth Street, 500 block. This officer just shot. I think he's dead.
Dispatcher:   10-4. We have that information. The citizen using the radio: Remain off the radio now.

That "602" was Butler attempting to let dispatch know that they were leaving the scene en route to the hospital.  However, he could not get through because Callaway is on the squad car radio reporting the incident (as the ambulance is speeding off).

After arriving on the scene in the ambulance, Butler and Kinsley rolled Tippit's body over (he was lying on his stomach) in order to place Tippit onto the stretcher..  Callaway noticed Tippit's service revolver lying on the street (it was underneath the body).  Callaway picked up the revolver and placed it on the hood of the patrol car and then helped Bowley, Butler and Kinsley load Tippit's body into the ambulance.

T.F. Bowley stated in his affidavit that once Tippit's body was loaded into the ambulance, he saw the service revolver lying on the hood of the patrol car (having been placed there moments earlier by Callaway).  Bowley picked up the revolver off of the hood and placed on the front seat of the patrol car.

"When the ambulance left, I took the gun and put it inside the squad car." -- T.F. Bowley (12/2/63 affidavit)

After making his report to the police dispatcher on the squad car radio, Callaway grabbed the service revolver from the front seat and proceeded to seek others to help him go off in search for the killer.

More evidence that Callaway helped load the body into the ambulance BEFORE he got on the police radio to report the shooting...

"And then I got out of the cab and run down there; the ambulance had
already arrived by the time I got there, and they were in the process
of picking the man up, and they had done had him, was putting him on
the stretcher when I got there, and they put him in the ambulance and
took him away, and there was someone that got on the radio at that
time and they told him he was going to report it, so they told him to
get off the air, that it had already been reported, and he picks up
the officer's pistol that was laying on the ground, apparently fell
out of his holster when he fell, and says, "Come on, let's go see if
we can find him."
-- WILLIAM SCOGGINS

The "someone that got on the radio" was Callaway and the "at that
time"
was once the ambulance "took him away".

Domingo Benavides said that Callaway got on the patrol car radio to report the shooting and the "officer" at the other end (the dispatcher) told Callaway that they already had that information and to stay off the air.  Benavides then said that Callaway grabbed the service revolver and said to Benavides that they should go chase the killer.  Benavides said he declined and added that Callaway then went over to the cab driver (Scoggins).

Callaway said to Scoggins "Let's get the son of a As I was walking a' alane, I heard twa corbies makin' a mane. The tane untae the tither did say, Whaur sail we gang and dine the day, O. Whaur sail we gang and dine the day?  It's in ahint yon auld fail dyke I wot there lies a new slain knight; And naebody kens that he lies there But his hawk and his hound, and his lady fair, O. But his hawk and his hound, and his lady fair.  His hound is to the hunting gane His hawk to fetch the wild-fowl hame, His lady ta'en anither mate, So we may mak' our dinner swate, O. So we may mak' our dinner swate.  Ye'll sit on his white hause-bane, And I'll pike oot his bonny blue e'en Wi' ae lock o' his gowden hair We'll theek oor nest when it grows bare, O. We'll theek oor nest when it grows bare.  There's mony a ane for him maks mane But nane sail ken whaur he is gane O'er his white banes when they are bare The wind sail blaw for evermair, O. The wind sail blaw for evermair.'".  Benavides said nothing about Callaway helping to load the body into the ambulance before going over to Scoggins with the revolver (because this had already been done earlier and the ambulance was gone).

"That "602" was Butler attempting to let dispatch know that they were leaving the scene en route to the hospital."

I'm sorry Bill, but this is an assumption you are making and it needs to be stated as such.
This interpretation of the "602" may fit your timeline but it is not inherent in the tapes.

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Re: Brown/Weidmann, Mini-Debate?
« Reply #279 on: May 25, 2022, 09:18:22 AM »