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Author Topic: Brown/Weidmann, Mini-Debate?  (Read 50249 times)

Offline Martin Weidmann

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Re: Brown/Weidmann, Mini-Debate?
« Reply #288 on: May 27, 2022, 03:40:11 PM »
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You completely misunderstand - likely intentionally - the difference between the legal standard that governs a criminal trial and a discussion outside that context to determine what happened.  In a criminal trial, the rights even of the guilty are taken into consideration.  The prosecution has a high burden to convict someone for a crime.  Even if there is evidence that proves beyond any doubt that a person has committed a crime, that evidence might be excluded due to a violation of the defendants rights.  Can you understand how that is different than reaching a conclusion as to whether an individual nevertheless committed the act?  If, for example, there is a film of an individual committing the crime, the fact that this film might be excluded from consideration in a legal context does not preclude everyone else from reaching the conclusion that the film demonstrates that the individual committed the crime.  Here, you suggest that there is a "chain of custody" issue.   A legal concept applied only in a criminal context.  This is a procedural question applicable only in a trial.  Even if you were correct that there is some issue with the chain of custody (and that is highly debatable), that alone does not mean there is doubt about Oswald's possession of this gun.  You do not provide a scintilla of evidence that actually demonstrates that the gun in evidence was not the same gun obtained from Oswald.  You do not address the totality of evidence and circumstances that link him to that particular gun.  Those are not assumptions.  There are documents that link him to the gun.  The DPD confirm they took that gun from him.  You can't even articulate a rational explanation for how or why this occurred.  You just shout over and over "chain of custody" as though that itself casts doubt on the matter.  It is a lazy defense attorney tactic when the facts, evidence, and common sense lend themselves to a different conclusion.

Can you understand how that is different than reaching a conclusion as to whether an individual nevertheless committed the act? 

If you want to reach such a conclusion based on questionable evidence that can not be authenticated, then yes, there is a massive difference. But even if you may want to do something so shallow and stupid, that doesn't mean that others have to do the same.

What you seem to struggle with is that a chain of custody issue is not just about "evidence that proves beyond any doubt that a person has committed a crime" might be excluded due to a violation of the defendants rights. It's about validation and authentication of evidence in general. Evidence that can not be authenticated is not valid and can never ever be considered as being proof of anything, including a defendant's guilt.

Let's see if you understand it, when I say it like this; You can not consider any piece of evidence as "proof beyond any doubt" that somebody is guilty, when you don't even know for a fact that the evidence is valid and authentic.

Here, you suggest that there is a "chain of custody" issue.   A legal concept applied only in a criminal context.  This is a procedural question applicable only in a trial.

No it isn't. Authentication is a prerequisite for anybody who wants to reach a honest conclusion based on the evidence. You keep going on about how the evidence shows Oswald's guilt, but you don't seem to care the least that the evidence may not be authentic, which basically makes your conclusion worthless.

Even if you were correct that there is some issue with the chain of custody (and that is highly debatable), that alone does not mean there is doubt about Oswald's possession of this gun.

Hilarious. That's exactly what it means, whether you like it or not.

You do not provide a scintilla of evidence that actually demonstrates that the gun in evidence was not the same gun obtained from Oswald.  You do not address the totality of evidence and circumstances that link him to that particular gun.

Don't have to. It's the classic LN "I'm right until you prove me wrong" BS again. You claim it's Oswald's revolver, so you need to prove that. Not the other way around!

There are documents that link him to the gun.  

Actually, no there aren't.

The DPD confirm they took that gun from him.

No, they didn't. Hill said that he was given that revolver and was told it was Oswald's. No officer has ever stated that he took the revolver now in evidence from Oswald.

You just shout over and over "chain of custody" as though that itself casts doubt on the matter.

Because it does. No such doubt would have to exist if there was a solid chain of custody. The fact that there isn't one justifies doubt.

It is a lazy defense attorney tactic when the facts, evidence, and common sense lend themselves to a different conclusion.

LOL ... the actual evidence is not authenticated and common sense is not evidence.
« Last Edit: May 28, 2022, 01:37:07 AM by Martin Weidmann »

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Re: Brown/Weidmann, Mini-Debate?
« Reply #288 on: May 27, 2022, 03:40:11 PM »


Online Richard Smith

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Re: Brown/Weidmann, Mini-Debate?
« Reply #289 on: May 28, 2022, 05:37:58 PM »
This is real simple.  Even if there were a "chain of custody" issue in the context of a criminal trial regarding the gun (and there is not) that alone does nothing to advance the claim that the gun in evidence is not the same gun taken from Oswald.  We can look to the evidence and totality of circumstances to make a conclusion about that outside of a criminal trial context.  We are not bound by the rules of a criminal trial and a real or imagined violation of those rules is not, standing alone, any evidence of a switch.  There are documents that link Oswald to this gun.  There are witnesses who confirm this gun was taken from Oswald.  There is not a scintilla of evidence that the revolver was ever owned by anyone else.  And think of the absurdity of the DPD somehow (unexplained) obtaining the actual murder weapon, letting the real murderer go free, framing Oswald (again for some unexpressed reason), forging all the documentation that links Oswald to this gun (including somehow working with the seller of the gun to forge documents), and covering up the ownership of the gun by someone else while allowing the real killer of a fellow police officer to go free.  All that is on one end of the evidentiary scale and on the other repeating "chain of custody" over and over.   

Offline Martin Weidmann

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Re: Brown/Weidmann, Mini-Debate?
« Reply #290 on: May 28, 2022, 07:09:19 PM »
This is real simple.  Even if there were a "chain of custody" issue in the context of a criminal trial regarding the gun (and there is not) that alone does nothing to advance the claim that the gun in evidence is not the same gun taken from Oswald.  We can look to the evidence and totality of circumstances to make a conclusion about that outside of a criminal trial context.  We are not bound by the rules of a criminal trial and a real or imagined violation of those rules is not, standing alone, any evidence of a switch.  There are documents that link Oswald to this gun.  There are witnesses who confirm this gun was taken from Oswald.  There is not a scintilla of evidence that the revolver was ever owned by anyone else.  And think of the absurdity of the DPD somehow (unexplained) obtaining the actual murder weapon, letting the real murderer go free, framing Oswald (again for some unexpressed reason), forging all the documentation that links Oswald to this gun (including somehow working with the seller of the gun to forge documents), and covering up the ownership of the gun by someone else while allowing the real killer of a fellow police officer to go free.  All that is on one end of the evidentiary scale and on the other repeating "chain of custody" over and over.

This is real simple.  Even if there were a "chain of custody" issue in the context of a criminal trial regarding the gun (and there is not) that alone does nothing to advance the claim that the gun in evidence is not the same gun taken from Oswald.

The only thing real simple here, is your reasoning, if it can be called that. Try to understand this; there doesn't have to be a claim that the gun in evidence is not the one taken from Oswald. Instead, it has to be proven that the gun in evidence is the one taken from Oswald.

We can look to the evidence and totality of circumstances to make a conclusion about that outside of a criminal trial context.  We are not bound by the rules of a criminal trial and a real or imagined violation of those rules is not, standing alone, any evidence of a switch.

What you a really saying is that outside of a criminal trial context you can make up anything you like, but that doesn't make it a valid argument and to call it a "conclusion" would be laughable.

There are documents that link Oswald to this gun.

No, there are not.

There are witnesses who confirm this gun was taken from Oswald.

No, there are not! You are already making up stuff again.

There is not a scintilla of evidence that the revolver was ever owned by anyone else

So what? There doesn't have to be? It tells you absolutely nothing.

And think of the absurdity of the DPD somehow (unexplained) obtaining the actual murder weapon, letting the real murderer go free, framing Oswald (again for some unexpressed reason), forging all the documentation that links Oswald to this gun (including somehow working with the seller of the gun to forge documents), and covering up the ownership of the gun by someone else while allowing the real killer of a fellow police officer to go free.

Cops don't lie.... Is that your point?

Beyond that, this is just another one of your pathetic strawman. I've already dealt with it in my previous post, yet here you are again with the same old BS.

What makes you think that the DPD (whatever you mean by that) obtained the murder weapon, in the knowledge that somebody else killed Tippit with it, or that they would knowingly be involved in a cover up?

All that is on one end of the evidentiary scale and on the other repeating "chain of custody" over and over.

You are way out of your league here.   


 
« Last Edit: May 28, 2022, 10:13:53 PM by Martin Weidmann »

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Re: Brown/Weidmann, Mini-Debate?
« Reply #290 on: May 28, 2022, 07:09:19 PM »


Offline John Iacoletti

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Re: Brown/Weidmann, Mini-Debate?
« Reply #291 on: May 28, 2022, 10:02:46 PM »
This is stupid even by “Richard” standards. He seems to think that chain of custody is only a legal maneuver used in court. If you can’t trust the evidence, then you can’t trust any conclusions made about the evidence.

Offline Martin Weidmann

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Re: Brown/Weidmann, Mini-Debate?
« Reply #292 on: May 29, 2022, 12:14:05 AM »
This is stupid even by “Richard” standards. He seems to think that chain of custody is only a legal maneuver used in court. If you can’t trust the evidence, then you can’t trust any conclusions made about the evidence.

Or, alternatively, "Richard understands full well just how questionable and weak the evidence really is and that it can't stand withstand detailed scrutiny beyond anything superficial. Or, is that giving him too much credit?

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Re: Brown/Weidmann, Mini-Debate?
« Reply #292 on: May 29, 2022, 12:14:05 AM »


Offline Bill Chapman

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Re: Brown/Weidmann, Mini-Debate?
« Reply #293 on: May 29, 2022, 12:51:31 AM »
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BONUS
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 ;D

Offline Martin Weidmann

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Re: Brown/Weidmann, Mini-Debate?
« Reply #294 on: May 29, 2022, 12:55:27 AM »
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BONUS
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 ;D

What gun was that, exactly?

On second thought, why am I asking you? You're clueless about any of this.
« Last Edit: May 29, 2022, 12:56:33 AM by Martin Weidmann »

Offline Bill Chapman

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Re: Brown/Weidmann, Mini-Debate?
« Reply #295 on: May 29, 2022, 01:14:08 AM »
What gun was that, exactly?

On second thought, why am I asking you? You're clueless about any of this.

> The one Brewer saw being taken from Oswald
> Clueless? You're the one who just said there were no witnesses who saw Oswald with a gun

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Re: Brown/Weidmann, Mini-Debate?
« Reply #295 on: May 29, 2022, 01:14:08 AM »