Progress... Have we made any ?.....

[Walt Cakebread]

The presence of the rifle is massively incriminating. It's the most incriminating piece of evidence there is. As far as I'm concerned, that's the point of the rifle - to be incriminating!

My rebuttal is that almost all the available evidence regarding who was on the 6th floor just before, during and after the assassination points away from Oswald:
Rowland, Roberts and Fischer all appear to describe the same man and that he was wearing clothes Oswald wasn't wearing and didn't own. Three independent eye-witness testimonies.
Euins is emphatic about the bald spot on the shooters head.
Garner never saw Oswald supposedly hurrying down the stairs - because he didn't hurry down the stairs, because he wasn't on the 6th floor at the time of the shooting.
He was in the Domino Room as he claims he was and this is confirmed by his observation of Jarman and Norman after they entered the rear door and were making their way to the west elevator. If they'd used the east elevator he wouldn't have seen them but it is because they had to walk around to the west one they came into view.

You can try and brush this all off all you want but it won't go away.

If Oswald wasn't on the 6th floor at the time of the shooting, and the available evidence dictates he wasn't, then the rifle was planted there to frame him. What possible evidence could there be for someone placing the rifle in it's hiding place? Film footage?

Nevertheless, he refused to identify Oswald and his reasons for not doing so are weak sauce indeed.

Wow.
I'll ignore the more outlandish parts of this section of your post.
Brennan states that the man he saw on the 6th floor appeared much older than Oswald. That's that.
His description of the shooter's movements after the assassination contradicts the WC's account, which left barely three seconds for Oswald to get in position on the 2nd floor looking calm and not out of breath. That's that.

The presence of the rifle is massively incriminating. It's the most incriminating piece of evidence there is. As far as I'm concerned, that's the point of the rifle - to be incriminating!

You're absolutely correct....Dan.    And the fact that Lee had Marina take his photo while holding a carcano similar to the carcano that was found where it had been well hidden beneath a pallet of books is also pretty convincing evidence that Lee owned a carcano.  The TSBD carcano may, or may not, be the same carcano that Lee is seen holding in that carnival rendition of a photo......But it makes no difference because that TSBD carcano was NOT fired that day.

So taken together the presence of the carcano....and a photo that seems to show him in possession  of that carcano is very difficult to refute.......BUT!!....Since I'm absolutely certain that Lee Oswald did NOT shoot anybody... that seemingly incriminating evidence   is very convincing that someone was setting him up to be the patsy.....  AND since it was the authorities ( The DPD and the FBI) who presented that lie to the public there can be little doubt about WHO set him up.

[Matt Grantham]

 Thanks to Walt, Dan and others for information on this If I had ever heard of this, I never comprehended its significance While not on the level of expertise as most here, I like to think I have gotten around for many years now and it is a pleasant surprise to still find out about something so significant

 I do have one question I thought I read something here that suggested Oswald's trip to the lunchroom for a coke may have been before Truly and Bakers arrival there around 12:32 (?) Is there any debate that he was there at 12:32 with Truly and Baker?

[John Iacoletti]

Just one account but it seems the wooden stairs were quieter or less "creaky"? then you'd think.

Here’s another account from Dorothy Garner:

"I remember hearing them, after they started down.  I remember the stairs were very noisy."

[Walt Cakebread]

Thanks to Walt, Dan and others for information on this If I had ever heard of this, I never comprehended its significance While not on the level of expertise as most here, I like to think I have gotten around for many years now and it is a pleasant surprise to still find out about something so significant

 I do have one question I thought I read something here that suggested Oswald's trip to the lunchroom for a coke may have been before Truly and Bakers arrival there around 12:32 (?) Is there any debate that he was there at 12:32 with Truly and Baker?

Is there any debate that he was there at 12:32 with Truly and Baker?

Though I don't know with absolute certainty that the time was 12:32....  But yes indeed Baker and Truly encountered Lee Oswald in that 2nd floor lunchroom and he had a Coke in his hand.  The time may not have been exactly 12:32. 

Lee told Captain Fritz that he ate his lunch in the first floor lunchroom and he saw Jarman and Norman walk by that lunchroom. We know from Jarman testimony that he and Norman did in fact walk by the 1st floor lunchroom at about 12:26. It was after Jarman and Norman boarded the west elevator to go to the 5th floor that Lee climbed the stairs  to the 2nd floor lunchroom to get a coke.  Lee never mentioned hearing any gunshots.....( If he was in the 1st floor lunchroom or  stairwell or the second floor lunchroom he probably didn't hear any gunshots. .... )  Now as I write this...I can't recall that any of his interrogators ever asking him if he had heard gunshots...?   This is very strange because a believe they asked nearly everybody they talked to if they had heard the shots.....      WHY didn't hey ask Lee??    Could it be that they didn't want to hear his negative reply?

[Jerry Freeman]

  Wow.  Brennan explained his initial reasons for not identifying Oswald.

Then he proceeds to not really identify him? 

He testified under oath that the shooter was Oswald.   

No he really didn't.
 

Mr. BELIN. Could you describe the man you saw in the window on the sixth floor?
Mr. BRENNAN. To my best description, a man in his early thirties, fair complexion, slender but neat, neat slender, possibly 5-foot 10.
Mr. BELIN. About what weight?
Mr. BRENNAN. Oh, at--I calculated, I think, from 160 to 170 pounds....
Mr. BELIN. Do you remember what kind of clothes he was wearing?
Mr. BRENNAN. Light colored clothes, more of a khaki color.
Mr. BELIN. Do you remember the color of his hair?
Mr. BRENNAN. No   
Mr. BELIN. All right. Did you see anyone in the lineup you recognized?
Mr. BRENNAN. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. And what did you say?
Mr. BRENNAN. I told Mr. Sorrels and Captain Fritz at that time that Oswald--or the man in the lineup that I identified looking more like a closest resemblance to the man in the window than anyone in the lineup.

[That is a positive identification? His "best description"?]

Mr. BELIN. Were the other people in the lineup, do you remember--were they all white, or were there some Negroes in there, or what?
Mr. BRENNAN. I do not remember.

[Someone that can't tell black from white?]

Mr. BELIN. As I understand your testimony, then, you said that you told him that this particular person looked the most like the man you saw on the sixth floor of the building there.
Mr. BRENNAN. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. In the meantime, had you seen any pictures of Lee Harvey Oswald on television or in the newspapers?
Mr. BRENNAN. Yes, on television.

That should disqualify a witness right there.
Everyone says Oswald did it...he's dead anyway so go ahead and ID him who cares.

[Richard Smith]

The presence of the rifle is massively incriminating. It's the most incriminating piece of evidence there is. As far as I'm concerned, that's the point of the rifle - to be incriminating!

My rebuttal is that almost all the available evidence regarding who was on the 6th floor just before, during and after the assassination points away from Oswald:
Rowland, Roberts and Fischer all appear to describe the same man and that he was wearing clothes Oswald wasn't wearing and didn't own. Three independent eye-witness testimonies.
Euins is emphatic about the bald spot on the shooters head.
Garner never saw Oswald supposedly hurrying down the stairs - because he didn't hurry down the stairs, because he wasn't on the 6th floor at the time of the shooting.
He was in the Domino Room as he claims he was and this is confirmed by his observation of Jarman and Norman after they entered the rear door and were making their way to the west elevator. If they'd used the east elevator he wouldn't have seen them but it is because they had to walk around to the west one they came into view.

You can try and brush this all off all you want but it won't go away.

If Oswald wasn't on the 6th floor at the time of the shooting, and the available evidence dictates he wasn't, then the rifle was planted there to frame him. What possible evidence could there be for someone placing the rifle in it's hiding place? Film footage?

Nevertheless, he refused to identify Oswald and his reasons for not doing so are weak sauce indeed.

Wow.
I'll ignore the more outlandish parts of this section of your post.
Brennan states that the man he saw on the 6th floor appeared much older than Oswald. That's that.
His description of the shooter's movements after the assassination contradicts the WC's account, which left barely three seconds for Oswald to get in position on the 2nd floor looking calm and not out of breath. That's that.

So you entertain the possibility that someone went to considerable trouble and risk to plant Oswald's rifle on the 6th floor to frame him for the assassination but then allowed him to be somewhere else at the moment of the assassination?  What if Oswald had done what most others did that day and stood out on the street in the presence of his coworkers?  Or had been in the presence of someone in the building?  What a lucky break that Old Ozzie had no apparent interest in the motorcade and was hanging about in the empty lunchroom all by his lonesome.  There is no way in this scenario that the conspirators leave Oswald's presence at the moment of the assassination unaccounted for.

[Steve M. Galbraith]

So you entertain the possibility that someone went to considerable trouble and risk to plant Oswald's rifle on the 6th floor to frame him for the assassination but then allowed him to be somewhere else at the moment of the assassination?  What if Oswald had done what most others did that day and stood out on the street in the presence of his coworkers?  Or had been in the presence of someone in the building?  What a lucky break that Old Ozzie had no apparent interest in the motorcade and was hanging about in the empty lunchroom all by his lonesome.  There is no way in this scenario that the conspirators leave Oswald's presence at the moment of the assassination unaccounted for.

So the idea is they planted his rifle and discovered it before his co-workers were interviewed about him, about where he was and they were at the time of the shooting. If they give him an alibi - "Lee was with us on the steps at the time" - then their whole plan collapses. Or if he shows up in the Altgens photo or some other film/photo then it also falls apart. This is the murder of the president not the framing of a guy for murdering a gas station attendant. Everyone will be interviewed again and again and again. As they were. How do you keep it quiet?

His alibi would be discovered. They could not squash it forever. Or even quash it too.

Moreover, they then went through a similar process in framing him (for who knows what reason) the shooting of Tippit. Oswald is setup before all of the witnesses are interviewed. If they go to the lineups or are shown photos of him and say, "Nope, that's not the guy" or they or the media find eyewitnesses elsewhere who say "Oswald was with us" the framing of him here also collapses. Again, this is about the murder of JFK and not some 7/11 clerk. It's going to be gone over again and again.

This is just one part of this alleged conspiracy. They cannot do this. It cannot be done. Not and kept quiet.

But in conspiracy world - the world of "the CIA" and "the war state" and "the military industrial complex" - anything can be done. Their view of American institutions is so dark that they believe they could do this. And that all sorts of ordinary Americans would go along. It's a view of the US and of how real human being behave that we simply cannot reason with.

One of two things is happening here: either we lone assassin believers are complete fools, misled by "the government", conned into believing things that didn't happened, essentially living in a "Matrix" world; or the conspiracy believers live in a unreal world,  a make believe world, the world of Garrison and Oliver Stone where nearly all powerful evil people and institutions - "the CIA!" "the military industrial complex! "Operation Northwoods! - covertly run the country. There is no middle ground.

[Richard Smith]

So the idea is they planted his rifle and discovered it before his co-workers were interviewed about him, about where he was and they were at the time of the shooting. If they give him an alibi - "Lee was with us on the steps at the time" - then their whole plan collapses. Or if he shows up in the Altgens photo or some other film/photo then it also falls apart. This is the murder of the president not the framing of a guy for murdering a gas station attendant. Everyone will be interviewed again and again and again. As they were. How do you keep it quiet?

His alibi would be discovered. They could not squash it forever.

Moreover, they then went through a similar process in framing him (for who knows what reason) the shooting of Tippit. Oswald is setup before all of the witnesses are interviewed. If they go to the lineups or are shown photos of him and say, "Nope, that's not the guy" or they or the media find eyewitnesses elsewhere who say "Oswald was with us" the framing of him here also collapses. Again, this is about the murder of JFK and not some 7/11 clerk. It's going to be gone over again and again.

This is just one part of this alleged conspiracy. They cannot do this. It cannot be done. Not and kept quiet.

But in conspiracy world - the world of "the CIA" and "the war state" and "the military industrial complex" - anything can be done. Their view of American institutions is so dark that they believe they could do this. And that all sorts of ordinary Americans would go along. It's a view of the US and of how real human being behave that we simply cannot reason with.

One of two things is happening here: either we lone assassin believers are complete fools, misled by "the government", conned into believing things that didn't happened, essentially living in a "Matrix" world; or the conspiracy believers live in a unreal world,  a make believe world where nearly all powerful evil people and institutions - "the CIA!" "the military industrial complex! "Operation Northwoods! - covertly run the country. There is no middle ground.

Those are great points Steve.  But some witness allegedly got the color of Oswald's shirt wrong while viewing him through a window in a six-story building and/or estimated his age incorrectly by a few years (no future career in the circus for them).  So he must have been framed!  No need to apply any logic to this conclusion.  LOL.